Not By Works

[VCO]

My father and uncle were Pastors growing up, I was raised in a southern baptist church, conservative. I attended a community non-denominational church for awhile also, did not agree with the doctrine though...very liberal..In recent years when living closer to town, my family attended another church considered conservative, non-denominational with doctrine in line with what you listed....baptism was not considered mandatory, but as a show of faith for those that desired it.

The preacher came from a Baptist Church, and I enjoyed his sermons. I have been studying everyday and currently live far from a church that would feel right for my family, but have not given up on looking. In the mean time it has been nice to read scripture everyday and reach out to learn more of the word...

I would be happy to discuss how I have come to believe in some things, that may be contrary to what is in the main stream church. 1 thing that will never change, is the cross. Christ died for us all, he took my place, and this humbles me everyday... For the most part, I am in lock step with your doctrine....but, some personal life experiences have brought me back to scripture, and as I ask the lord for wisdom and knowledge, I feel he will not lead me astray.

Wow, I was not expecting that. I wish you had the boldness to say that Earlier. That Statement of Faith came from a Baptist Church, but it harmonizes with our Statement. I apologize for the POST #80,747, I WAS WRONG.

Our Statement, like I said would not Fit the Post Page. Got to go to a DR. Appointment.

 

[TruthTalk]

Do we all speak English on this thread?
You say John 15:1-6 does NOT speak about salvation??

This is Jesus speaking. I'd rather believe HIM than the guy you mentioned up above.

If Jesus was here right this very minute, and He is, He would say, dear; Fran you do error in your interpretation of John 15:6. It is the will of My Father that 'I shall not lose none of all He has given Me', but raise them up at the last day."

What every person here is telling you is that you cannot force scripture to say what you want it to say. You should allow God's word to speak forth the truth, not speak into the word what you want it to say.

Scripture harmonizes with scripture period.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that 'I shall lose none of all those he has given Me', but raise them up at the last day.

John 15:6
6) “If anyone does not abide in Me he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "

 

[mailmandan]

Be here a little later on.
The BIG point is that Jesus WAS speaking about salvation.

A branch that is CUT AWAY, left to DRY and then BURNED...
sounds pretty serious to me....

Later.

James said FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.
DEAD...as in NOT living...of no use....not existing.

It's not the catholic church that said this....it's JAMES that said this,
not to mention Jesus and Paul.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

 

[Budman]

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

My understanding is "dead" means unproductive. Not an indication one is not an actual believer. If good works are "proof" one is truly saved, it contradicts nearly everything Paul taught.

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5)

 

[VCO]

Wow, I was not expecting that. I wish you had the boldness to say that Earlier. That Statement of Faith came from a Baptist Church, but it harmonizes with our Statement. I apologize for the POST #80,747, I WAS WRONG.

Our Statement, like I said would not Fit the Post Page. Got to go to a DR. Appointment.

ATTN: Rightlydivided

I am back, the Dr. actually called in sick. There is a major flu epidemic in Omaha, and she lives in Omaha. Now let, me expain. We had two people at different times in the Past, that REFUSED to give us a hint what kind of Church they hail from, one of them was proven to be a Mormon, and I am not sure about the other, but there were strong cult-like false doctrines that the person wanted to present. I admit, when you refused to tell us what type of Church you are from, I wronging thought "Here we go again!" So I want to apologize again.

I can be friends with anybody that shows they are genuine Christians, even if we disagree on certain issues, as long as they do not include these absolutes:

Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
Coequal Deity of Jesus Christ.
The Importance of an attitude towards Repentance.
Absolute Necessity to be Born Again by the Holy Spirit.
SALVATION has nothing to do with WORKS, and Works to finish off Salvation, would be a FALSE GOSPEL.
Obedience is NOT part of SALVATION, but during the SANCTIFICATION Process, IT SPAWNS FROM OUR LOVE.


Apart from those ABSOLUTE ISSUES, I can agree to disagree, and still remain friends.

 

[stonesoffire]

This isn't scripture.
It's your opinion.

So you don't think people lose their faith?
Watch this... A sample only. There are many like him...

I want to respond to this post. Am not watching the video because I don't need to. 1John explains fully the reason this man or any other person that sits in a pew hearing but never really believing unto salvation. He may call himself a Christian or is of the faith of christianity, but thinks in the manner of...he's not a Buddhist for example. Or even because one is american, one might say they are christian.

But, when the congregation gets hot....spirit filled and moving in Spirit....he will be exposed and he will leave. If one isn't born again...he's antichrist.

I'm not totally sure that God allows those who may never hear the gospel preached to be lost. I've heard too many testimonies of Jesus's appearance to muslims and others similar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My understanding is "dead" means unproductive. Not an indication one is not an actual believer. If good works are "proof" one is truly saved, it contradicts nearly everything Paul taught.

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5)

Hey bud, rom 4 is talking about before salvation or the reason we are saved.

Someone who has true faith is a new creation, i am not saying that we need to see them to prove his faith was real, but they will have works..weather we can see them or not

 

[stonesoffire]

Pauls gospel was a revelation given to him by Jesus. I know we all know this, but we then must differ between the two covenants and separate what is towards Israel, past, present and future, and what is towards the body of Christ. The latter is a revelation given to Paul. And hidden allegorically in the old testament.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I want to respond to this post. Am not watching the video because I don't need to. 1John explains fully the reason this man or any other person that sits in a pew hearing but never really believing unto salvation. He may call himself a Christian or is of the faith of christianity, but thinks in the manner of...he's not a Buddhist for example. Or even because one is american, one might say they are christian.

But, when the congregation gets hot....spirit filled and moving in Spirit....he will be exposed and he will leave. If one isn't born again...he's antichrist.

I'm not totally sure that God allows those who may never hear the gospel preached to be lost. I've heard too many testimonies of Jesus's appearance to muslims and others similar.

You really should watch the video. He's not a pew warmer but a bible scholar and theologian and doctor of old languages including Koine Greek and Hebrew. i can't even remember all his credentials...
He was a TRUE believer.

As to your last sentence,,,I do agree.
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I want to respond to this post. Am not watching the video because I don't need to

amen sis

our teacher is the Holy spirit
and we go to Gods word...

not the doctrine of men who think themself as wise without even the core message of the gospel.....

the blind leading the blind

 

[GodsGrace101]

If Jesus was here right this very minute, and He is, He would say, dear; Fran you do error in your interpretation of John 15:6. It is the will of My Father that 'I shall not lose none of all He has given Me', but raise them up at the last day."

What every person here is telling you is that you cannot force scripture to say what you want it to say. You should allow God's word to speak forth the truth, not speak into the word what you want it to say.

Scripture harmonizes with scripture period.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that 'I shall lose none of all those he has given Me', but raise them up at the last day.

John 15:6
6) “If anyone does not abide in Me he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "

I see. You're saying Jesus contradicts Himself then?

So are those who were attached to the vine in John 15 not saved?
So some the father gave to Jesus were dried up and detached from the vine and burned?

What's the story here?
Could it be that in John 6:39 is not speaking about people but what Jesus accomplished on the cross, which has already been established on this thread, BTW.

People will also be resurrected on the last day.
The people that believe in Jesus....not those who lose their faith.

John 3:16

 

[Hevosmies]

Hey bud, rom 4 is talking about before salvation or the reason we are saved.

Someone who has true faith is a new creation, i am not saying that we need to see them to prove his faith was real, but they will have works..weather we can see them or not

To some taking care of their sick relative might be the fruit, the works.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The only thing that some people are digging is their hole deeper.

Well, I guess this attitude about ends our discussion.
Too bad.

Just this:

What did Jesus tell the Rich Young Man?
Did He tell him not to worry -- all the rich young man had to do was just believe on Jesus?
Or did He tell him to follow every commandment...
AND THEN
made it even more difficult when Jesus told him to go and sell everything???
Mathew 19:16-30

What did Jesus tell the adulterous woman?
That all she had to do was to believe on Jesus?
Or did He tell her to go and sin no more?
John 7:43.......

On the surface, as you say, it might seem that Jesus does NOT tell them to just believe in HIM,
but He's actually telling them to obey God and HIMSELF.

But perhaps you can find a way around this surface belief?.....

 

[GodsGrace101]

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

Faith without works is dead
means

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

If you think you have faith, but do not have works...your faith is DEAD.

Plain and simple.


dead
/dɛd/
adjective

1. 1.
   no longer alive.
   "a dead body"
   synonyms:deceased, expired, departed, gone, no more, passed on, passed away; More
   
   2.
   complete; absolute.
   "we sat in dead silence"
   synonyms:complete, absolute, total, entire, outright, utter, downright, out-and-out, thorough, unqualified, unmitigated
   "there was dead silence in the room"

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Well, I guess this attitude about ends our discussion.
Too bad.

Just this:

What did Jesus tell the Rich Young Man?
Did He tell him not to worry -- all the rich young man had to do was just believe on Jesus?
Or did He tell him to follow every commandment...
AND THEN
made it even more difficult when Jesus told him to go and sell everything???
Mathew 19:16-30

What did Jesus tell the adulterous woman?
That all she had to do was to believe on Jesus?
Or did He tell her to go and sin no more?
John 7:43.......

On the surface, as you say, it might seem that Jesus does NOT tell them to just believe in HIM,
but He's actually telling them to obey God and HIMSELF.

But perhaps you can find a way around this surface belief?.....

so much error in all of your understandings


BEFORE He said go and sin no more (speaking of the adultry)
He said He does not condemn her

she didnt even say sorry in the scriptures

she only called Him Lord....

and in matthew that man is asking how to be perfect

goodness

this has been explained so many times


matthew 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

_________

Jesus was telling this man how to be perfect

this man believed his works regarding the commandments were perfect (including loving his neighbor as himself)

Jesus is saying ohhhhh is that so?

then give up all your things and follow me
(to expose where this mans heart really was.... it is not evil to have possessions)


22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

____________



again same principal

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
(again a man looking to be justified by works)
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
(this man believes he actually does this fully)
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Jesus says knowing this man is self righteous yaaa thats all you need then if you are correct)
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
(as if he truely does this knowing Jesus does not believe him asks ohhh who is my neighbor maybe i am wrong mockingly)


30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

____________


that amount of money
as well as offering for excess was .... a lot of money at that time....

this exposes that man who believed he was doing these things is actually wrong......

he does not love his enemy as himself as he ought to in order to be perfect

let alone his literal neighbor....
people try to take and mix up

reproof

instruction for righteousness

the law

and works

and try to say a man needs more than grace and faith to be saved (which isnt true)

 

[mailmandan]

Faith without works is dead
means

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

If you think you have faith, but do not have works...your faith is DEAD.

Plain and simple.


dead
/dɛd/
adjective

1. 1.
   no longer alive.
   "a dead body"
   synonyms:deceased, expired, departed, gone, no more, passed on, passed away; More
   
   2.
   complete; absolute.
   "we sat in dead silence"
   synonyms:complete, absolute, total, entire, outright, utter, downright, out-and-out, thorough, unqualified, unmitigated
   "there was dead silence in the room"

Don’t ignore that James said “says-claims” (key word) to have faith but has no works. Can “that” faith save him? The answer to that rhetorical question is NO, because that is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James did not say no longer has faith.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

 

[GodsGrace101]

so much error in all of your understandings


BEFORE He said go and sin no more (speaking of the adultry)
He said He does not condemn her

and in matthew that man is asking how to be perfect

goodness

this has been explained so many times


matthew 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

_________

Jesus was telling this man how to be perfect

this man believed his works regarding the commandments were perfect (including loving his neighbor as himself)

Jesus is saying ohhhhh is that so?

then give up all your things and follow me
(to expose where this mans heart really was.... it is not evil to have possessions)


22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

____________



again same principal

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
(again a man looking to be justified by works)
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
(this man believes he actually does this fully)
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Jesus says knowing this man is self righteous yaaa thats all you need then if you are correct)
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
(as if he truely does this knowing Jesus does not believe him asks ohhh who is my neighbor maybe i am wrong mockingly)


30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

____________


that amount of money
as well as offering for excess was .... a lot of money at that time....

this exposes that man who believed he was doing these things is actually wrong......

he does not love his enemy as himself as he ought to in order to be perfect

let alone his literal neighbor....
people try to take and mix up

reproof

instruction for righteousness

the law

and works

and try to say a man needs more than grace and faith to be saved (which isnt true)

You sure do read a lot into verses NNM.
Do you know that you're not supposed to ADD your own ideas to scripture?
This is called eisegesis and not exegesis.

Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said.

Luke 10:28
What did JESUS tell the man to do?

Jesus told the woman He did not condemn her...He also told her to go and sin no more.
You only see one side of this two-sided coin? You must see both sides.

Mathew 17:19
To have eternal life,,,,Jesus told the RYM to keep the commandments...,
NOT to just believe in Him (Jesus) and all would be OK.

When Jesus said, as you put it "OOOOh , is that so" He was raising the bar, not lowering it.
For instance, what does Mathew 5:20 mean? Same idea.

As for Jesus telling RYM how to be perfect. Do you really think Jesus thought any human being could be perfect? What did Jesus mean in Mathew 5:48? Perfect does not mean to be blameless and spotless.

Luke 10:30-37
What was the point of this parable?
Was it to show that all those passers by needed only to have faith and DO NOTHING?
NO. It was to show that the one who helped the man, the samaritan, DID SOMETHING to help him. HE was the one that Jesus said DID the right thing. Not the religious ones, but the one who DID as our Father in heaven said to do...as in the Beatitudes, for instance.
Mathew 5:3-10

 

[Hevosmies]

Don’t ignore that James said “says-claims” (key word) to have faith but has no works. Can “that” faith save him? The answer to that rhetorical question is NO, because that is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James did not say no longer has faith.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

i've never understood this thing where someone has encountered the LIVING GOD and has the Holy Spirit of God in them, yet they still decide to just "stop believing" one morning.

How is that possible? I just cant see it being a possibility for a born again believer.

 

[stonesoffire]

You really should watch the video. He's not a pew warmer but a bible scholar and theologian and doctor of old languages including Koine Greek and Hebrew. i can't even remember all his credentials...
He was a TRUE believer.

As to your last sentence,,,I do agree.
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

A scholar is not what characterizes a true believer.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Don’t ignore that James said “says-claims” (key word) to have faith but has no works. Can “that” faith save him? The answer to that rhetorical question is NO, because that is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James did not say no longer has faith.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

I agree with your first paragraph. I did not say he was saved then lost...I wasn't speaking about OSAS.
I was speaking about how a faith without and good deeds attached to it is a dead faith, of no value to anyone --- not to other humans and not to God.

After all, WE are God's hands and feet on this earth. If we don't do His will - who will?

When James asked if THAT faith can save him (the person) he meant that the type of faith in question...
faith without works...
does NOT save.
Because we are not doing God's will.

Mathew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "

Jesus is telling us WHO will enter into heaven.

He does NOT say those who do not believe in Me....
He DOES say: "Those who do the will of My Father who is in heave."

We should pay more attention to what Jesus says.