Speaking in tongues
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Paul said they would all cease...just when did you think they were to cease and how do you define the "perfect"?
I have given a lot of scripture and several posts on this subject, none of which you have read (by your redundant questions), so I am at a loss as to add anything that would agree with your in any way.
I have given a lot of scripture and several posts on this subject, none of which you have read (by your redundant questions), so I am at a loss as to add anything that would agree with your in any way.
Still dodging and restructuring the question to suit your position. It isn't that hard, Garee.
I'm beginning to thing that you are incapable of providing a simple answer. Don't redefine anything. Don't add commentary. Don't ask secondary questions while this primary question remains unanswered. A simple answer is all I ask.
Does Scripture call tongues a gift and a sign?
I'm beginning to thing that you are incapable of providing a simple answer. Don't redefine anything. Don't add commentary. Don't ask secondary questions while this primary question remains unanswered. A simple answer is all I ask.
Does Scripture call tongues a gift and a sign?
I believe we should interpret I Corinthians 13 in a way that is consistent with everything else Paul wrote in the epistle. As Paul started I Corinthians, he starting an epistle in which he would teach on spiritual gifts, paying special attention to speaking in tongues, interpretation, and prophecy.
In I Corinthians 1:7 Paul writes, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
If Paul expected or wished that his readers would come behind in no spiritual gift before Jesus came back-- and tongues, interpretation, and prophecy were specifically among the gifts he would write about in that book.
We can also look at the topics Paul addresses in I Corinthians. In some of Paul's epistles, he mentions a topic only to explore it in more depth later. Some theologians talk about 'long thoughts' that run through his epistles. Let's compare I Corinthians 13 and other topics he brings up later in the epistle:
I Corinthians 13 I Corinthians 14 I Corinthians 15
tongues and prophecy tongues and prophecy
that which is perfect the state of the believer at the return of Christ.
Paul compares his speech, thinking and understanding before the perfect comes to that of a child, and his speech, knowledge, and understanding after the perfect comes to that of an adult. Some people argue that 'the perfect' means the completed canon. But notice that the coming of the perfect will effect Paul's speech, thinking, and understanding. He was asleep in Christ when the canon was completed. Be that as it may, let's say you want to take that unsupported jump to say that Paul is the child who did not have the perfect (the completed canon) in your theory. But you have it. So that makes you the adult in speech, knowledge, and understanding, and Paul the child. Can you really say that your knowledge and understanding of the word of God is so far advanced over Paul's that his is like a child's by comparison? Aren't you still learning things from Paul's writings as the years go on?
Also, why would you be able to become an adult in your understanding by reading a child's understanding? This interpretation does not make sense.
When I read this passage, I recall what John writes about Jesus. We shall be like Him, for we shall see him as He is. I seem to recall some time later reading John Calvin's commentary on I Corinthians 13 where he refers to this same verse from I John.
I also came across a quote from Martyn Lloyd Jones which made the same point I did about your cessationist interpretation putting yourself in a superior position to the apostles. His quote was more succinct than the way I explained it.
Something else to keep in mind is that your interpretation is a few hundred years old-- maybe going back to the 1700s. It is possible the interpretation is older. John Calvin argued that the interpretation that the perfect came before the resurrection or death (the latter is an odd interpretation, IMO) as stupid or foolish depending on the translation. What real theologians these days hold to that interpretation?
Even many outspoken cessationists proponents reject your interpretation. John MacArthur wrote three books and hosted a large conference opposed to the contemporary function of the gifts of the Spirit, and he takes 'that which is perfect' to refer to the eternal state.
In I Corinthians 1:7 Paul writes, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
If Paul expected or wished that his readers would come behind in no spiritual gift before Jesus came back-- and tongues, interpretation, and prophecy were specifically among the gifts he would write about in that book.
We can also look at the topics Paul addresses in I Corinthians. In some of Paul's epistles, he mentions a topic only to explore it in more depth later. Some theologians talk about 'long thoughts' that run through his epistles. Let's compare I Corinthians 13 and other topics he brings up later in the epistle:
I Corinthians 13 I Corinthians 14 I Corinthians 15
tongues and prophecy tongues and prophecy
that which is perfect the state of the believer at the return of Christ.
Paul compares his speech, thinking and understanding before the perfect comes to that of a child, and his speech, knowledge, and understanding after the perfect comes to that of an adult. Some people argue that 'the perfect' means the completed canon. But notice that the coming of the perfect will effect Paul's speech, thinking, and understanding. He was asleep in Christ when the canon was completed. Be that as it may, let's say you want to take that unsupported jump to say that Paul is the child who did not have the perfect (the completed canon) in your theory. But you have it. So that makes you the adult in speech, knowledge, and understanding, and Paul the child. Can you really say that your knowledge and understanding of the word of God is so far advanced over Paul's that his is like a child's by comparison? Aren't you still learning things from Paul's writings as the years go on?
Also, why would you be able to become an adult in your understanding by reading a child's understanding? This interpretation does not make sense.
When I read this passage, I recall what John writes about Jesus. We shall be like Him, for we shall see him as He is. I seem to recall some time later reading John Calvin's commentary on I Corinthians 13 where he refers to this same verse from I John.
I also came across a quote from Martyn Lloyd Jones which made the same point I did about your cessationist interpretation putting yourself in a superior position to the apostles. His quote was more succinct than the way I explained it.
Something else to keep in mind is that your interpretation is a few hundred years old-- maybe going back to the 1700s. It is possible the interpretation is older. John Calvin argued that the interpretation that the perfect came before the resurrection or death (the latter is an odd interpretation, IMO) as stupid or foolish depending on the translation. What real theologians these days hold to that interpretation?
Even many outspoken cessationists proponents reject your interpretation. John MacArthur wrote three books and hosted a large conference opposed to the contemporary function of the gifts of the Spirit, and he takes 'that which is perfect' to refer to the eternal state.
I have seen that kind of argument before-- that certain Biblical teachings on gifts of the Spirit are no longer valid because we are in a different dispensation, a dispensation not taught by scripture.
First of all, who is advocating for gifts operating on emotion and not love?
But I am not going to agree with that statement. Balaam and Caiaphas may have been lacking in love when they prophesied, but still prophesied. Paul's warning in I Corinthians 13 said nothing about the gifts being fake.
First of all, who is advocating for gifts operating on emotion and not love?
But I am not going to agree with that statement. Balaam and Caiaphas may have been lacking in love when they prophesied, but still prophesied. Paul's warning in I Corinthians 13 said nothing about the gifts being fake.
This comment seems rather theologically weird to me. It reminds me of some gnostic ideas I have read about, frankly.
I Thessalonians 5:13 says,
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (ESV)
Is God's wrath against the saints? Jesus saves us from wrath. I see no scripture that teaches that God's wrath is against the bodies of the saints.
Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
I Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (ESV)
I Thessalonians 5:13 says,
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (ESV)
Is God's wrath against the saints? Jesus saves us from wrath. I see no scripture that teaches that God's wrath is against the bodies of the saints.
Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
I Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (ESV)
Since Jesus said this, I will stick with my terminology.
Matthew 23:12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. (ESV)
No one is making those claims. Do you think the Bible is wrong for using the same terminology I use. Is the Bible exalting Paul by saying he healed Publius? A reasonable, unconfused person should interpretat that to mean that it was God's power healing through Paul. There is no need for you to get hung up on words. I think you have a problem with the way the Bible words some things. If the Bible conflicts with your beliefs, your beliefs need to change.
It seems to me that you have a big problem accepting many of the teachings in the gospels, Acts, and other books of the Bible. Jesus preached and did signs and wonders. Mark 16 'These signs shall follow them that believe....' That is a good thing. You should praise God for signs and wonders. The apostles did not consider signs and wonders to be against faith. In Acts 4, they prayed for God to stretch forth His hand and do signs and wonders. I have no problem joining the apostles and praying the same thing. What about you? Is that a problem for you? I think it is. It seems to be a problem for you because you have created your own system of doctrine in your mind where somehow signs and wonders are contrary to faith. You interpret them to be against 'walking by faith' and instead be about 'walking by sight.' That makes no sense because Jesus, Who you claim to believe in, was and is a great miracle Worker. The apostles worked miracles. You should not be against signs, wonders, or miracles.
Signs, wonders, and miracles can help some people believe the word that is preached. You should be thankful for God's mercy in doing signs wonders and miracles. Jesus said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not believe' before healing a man. Sergius Paulus believed Paul's preaching after witnessing Paul declare Elymas blind. The Samaritans paid close attention to Philip's preaching after they saw the signs that he did. From Jerusalem, round about unto Illyricum, with signs and wonders, Paul fully preached the Gospel of Christ. If you cannot appreciate that because of your ideas and beliefs, your ideas and beliefs need to change.
The Bible, the KJV at least, tells us that the ass spoke. I have heard some people say the ass prophesied. God opened its mouth so that it could talk. So the words came from the donkey, just as your words come from you. But God enables us all to be able to speak.
The Bible shows us that God enabled the apostles to heal and to work miracles. But it also says that Paul healed. So there is no contradiction, and you should not flip out whenever someone uses the same type of terminology the Bible uses as if it is blasphemous. The book of Acts is not blasphemy.
.as the work that did actively work to restrain the madness of that false apostles. God is simply not served by human hands.
As far as being evil and adulterous goes, his audience was made up of pagans. But they did not demand a sign from him. Most of the people were apparently suprised at what happened. Notice the man who was healed, though. Notice how what happened to him goes against what you write over and over and over again on this forum.
When this man was healed, was he 'walking by sight' instead of 'walking by faith.' No, the man heard the preaching of the Gospel and somehow had faith to be healed. What was he listening to? Why would he believe God to heal him? If you heard Paul's preaching, would you call it a 'signs and wonders gospel'? Peter, in Cornelius' house, preached that Jesus had healed those who were oppressed of the devil. He preached about Jesus healing.
We do not know if any of these others in the crowd had faith when Paul told the man to walk, but that man who was healed did. He believed God, and he was healed. His experiencing a miracle did not mean that he was 'walking by sight' instead of 'walking by faith.' This is another proof against the confused misinterpretation of Biblical phrases you often post here on this topic.
No, your understanding of this passage is confused and clearly wrong. There is no indication that the pagans demanded any kind of sign. The crippled man believed the preaching and had faith to be healed. He was healed. Who walked by faith? Quite literally, the man who had been crippled 'walked by faith.' He was not able to walk. He believed Paul's preaching, and then, by faith, he was healed and was able to walk, by the grace of God. If he had just 'walked by sight' and looked at how crippled his legs were and not believed Paul's preaching, there is no reason to think that he would have been healed. I suspect this man became a Christian and was a member of the church later, though we do not have details abotu him.
Matthew 23:12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. (ESV)
No one is making those claims. Do you think the Bible is wrong for using the same terminology I use. Is the Bible exalting Paul by saying he healed Publius? A reasonable, unconfused person should interpretat that to mean that it was God's power healing through Paul. There is no need for you to get hung up on words. I think you have a problem with the way the Bible words some things. If the Bible conflicts with your beliefs, your beliefs need to change.
It seems to me that you have a big problem accepting many of the teachings in the gospels, Acts, and other books of the Bible. Jesus preached and did signs and wonders. Mark 16 'These signs shall follow them that believe....' That is a good thing. You should praise God for signs and wonders. The apostles did not consider signs and wonders to be against faith. In Acts 4, they prayed for God to stretch forth His hand and do signs and wonders. I have no problem joining the apostles and praying the same thing. What about you? Is that a problem for you? I think it is. It seems to be a problem for you because you have created your own system of doctrine in your mind where somehow signs and wonders are contrary to faith. You interpret them to be against 'walking by faith' and instead be about 'walking by sight.' That makes no sense because Jesus, Who you claim to believe in, was and is a great miracle Worker. The apostles worked miracles. You should not be against signs, wonders, or miracles.
Signs, wonders, and miracles can help some people believe the word that is preached. You should be thankful for God's mercy in doing signs wonders and miracles. Jesus said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not believe' before healing a man. Sergius Paulus believed Paul's preaching after witnessing Paul declare Elymas blind. The Samaritans paid close attention to Philip's preaching after they saw the signs that he did. From Jerusalem, round about unto Illyricum, with signs and wonders, Paul fully preached the Gospel of Christ. If you cannot appreciate that because of your ideas and beliefs, your ideas and beliefs need to change.
The Bible, the KJV at least, tells us that the ass spoke. I have heard some people say the ass prophesied. God opened its mouth so that it could talk. So the words came from the donkey, just as your words come from you. But God enables us all to be able to speak.
The Bible shows us that God enabled the apostles to heal and to work miracles. But it also says that Paul healed. So there is no contradiction, and you should not flip out whenever someone uses the same type of terminology the Bible uses as if it is blasphemous. The book of Acts is not blasphemy.
.as the work that did actively work to restrain the madness of that false apostles. God is simply not served by human hands.
As far as being evil and adulterous goes, his audience was made up of pagans. But they did not demand a sign from him. Most of the people were apparently suprised at what happened. Notice the man who was healed, though. Notice how what happened to him goes against what you write over and over and over again on this forum.
When this man was healed, was he 'walking by sight' instead of 'walking by faith.' No, the man heard the preaching of the Gospel and somehow had faith to be healed. What was he listening to? Why would he believe God to heal him? If you heard Paul's preaching, would you call it a 'signs and wonders gospel'? Peter, in Cornelius' house, preached that Jesus had healed those who were oppressed of the devil. He preached about Jesus healing.
We do not know if any of these others in the crowd had faith when Paul told the man to walk, but that man who was healed did. He believed God, and he was healed. His experiencing a miracle did not mean that he was 'walking by sight' instead of 'walking by faith.' This is another proof against the confused misinterpretation of Biblical phrases you often post here on this topic.
No, your understanding of this passage is confused and clearly wrong. There is no indication that the pagans demanded any kind of sign. The crippled man believed the preaching and had faith to be healed. He was healed. Who walked by faith? Quite literally, the man who had been crippled 'walked by faith.' He was not able to walk. He believed Paul's preaching, and then, by faith, he was healed and was able to walk, by the grace of God. If he had just 'walked by sight' and looked at how crippled his legs were and not believed Paul's preaching, there is no reason to think that he would have been healed. I suspect this man became a Christian and was a member of the church later, though we do not have details abotu him.
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It's not because of a different dispensation. It's because Gods word has declared it.
If you say so...
Scripture clearly teaches that it is not gifts that bring men to Christ but the gospel as taught in the word of God. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment when the word of God goes forth. Men today do not believe that God will fulfill His word and save men by preaching the gospel.
1Cor 1:18
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you say so...
Scripture clearly teaches that it is not gifts that bring men to Christ but the gospel as taught in the word of God. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment when the word of God goes forth. Men today do not believe that God will fulfill His word and save men by preaching the gospel.
1Cor 1:18
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We aren't being very specific here. That which is in part will be done away when that which is perfect is come, which will be akin to Paul's speech, thinking, and understanding in the first century when he was writing the epistle will be like a child's in comparison to his speech, thinking, and understanding when the perfect comes. The state of the believer resurrection certainly seems to fit that description better.
And of course many cessationists try to do away with gifts like healing and the working of miracles with no Biblical justification at all. The scriptures say the Spirit gives these gifts as He wills, but these cessationists insist that He does not.
Show me where the Bible clearly teaches that. Ephesians 4 shows us that evangelists are gifts.
Evangelists preach the Gospel, and people are saved through the preaching of the gospel.
And of course many cessationists try to do away with gifts like healing and the working of miracles with no Biblical justification at all. The scriptures say the Spirit gives these gifts as He wills, but these cessationists insist that He does not.
Show me where the Bible clearly teaches that. Ephesians 4 shows us that evangelists are gifts.
Evangelists preach the Gospel, and people are saved through the preaching of the gospel.
I would offer of course it does. With men of other tongues and other lips Christ said will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me.The sign is not for both The sign not speak to both people.
Yes prophecy in diverse languages heard in a language "easy to understand" is for those who do believe. ( no outward sign to confirm they believe).. No different then going to church or reading the bible as a confirmation . All die not receiving the promise of their new incorruptible bodies . We walk by faith, our living Hope that we are born again
It is a sign against those. God mocking (Isaiah 28) those who refuse to believe the word of God prophecy , like those below as those who see no evil.
As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.Jerimiah 44:16-17
Yes prophecy in diverse languages heard in a language "easy to understand" is for those who do believe. ( no outward sign to confirm they believe).. No different then going to church or reading the bible as a confirmation . All die not receiving the promise of their new incorruptible bodies . We walk by faith, our living Hope that we are born again
It is a sign against those. God mocking (Isaiah 28) those who refuse to believe the word of God prophecy , like those below as those who see no evil.
As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.Jerimiah 44:16-17
The context is not the state of the believer. But is whether where there will be the word of God prophesies, they will fail and if prophecy by tongues they will cease and therefore any new knowledge it shall vanish. For we know the word of God, prophecy in part but when the last verse (Revelation 22:21) comes we heed the warning not to add or subtract from the book of prophecy. The bible.
That law book the bible will remain until the new heavens and earth appear and we receive our promise the new incorruptible bodies. The bible would have served it purpose.
It does not as "the perfect" have anything to do with receiving our new incorruptible bodies..(neither male or female, Jew nor gentile) Then the warning not to add or subtract from the whole would have no effect. The former things found in the book of the law the bible will not be remembered or ever come to mind when that perfect comes.
Not one thought having to do with the body as to the perfect.
Again it would seem For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. And not we "are known" in part as the part.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. 1 Corinthians13:
That law book the bible will remain until the new heavens and earth appear and we receive our promise the new incorruptible bodies. The bible would have served it purpose.
It does not as "the perfect" have anything to do with receiving our new incorruptible bodies..(neither male or female, Jew nor gentile) Then the warning not to add or subtract from the whole would have no effect. The former things found in the book of the law the bible will not be remembered or ever come to mind when that perfect comes.
Not one thought having to do with the body as to the perfect.
Again it would seem For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. And not we "are known" in part as the part.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. 1 Corinthians13:
Garee, it amazes me how you warn others not to add to the word of God, but that is exactly what you do.
Here is Scripture: "but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease"
Here is your corruption of Scripture: "where there will be the word of God prophesies, they will fail and if prophecy by tongues they will cease."
Here is Scripture: "but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease"
Here is your corruption of Scripture: "where there will be the word of God prophesies, they will fail and if prophecy by tongues they will cease."
1Corinthians 13: (ESV)
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
1John 3: (ESV)
1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears
we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
1John 3: (ESV)
1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears
we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
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Scripture only says that the three will terminate. Tongues, prophesy and knowledge end but you want to continue them. The Holy Spirit does not work outside of what is described in the word of God.
You are simply endeavoring to play this cute. There is a difference between what God has gifted to the church and what God has gifted to individuals.
You are on the point that the gospel is preached not revealed in miracles. Even if you arrive there by the wrong reason.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You are simply endeavoring to play this cute. There is a difference between what God has gifted to the church and what God has gifted to individuals.
You are on the point that the gospel is preached not revealed in miracles. Even if you arrive there by the wrong reason.
For the cause of Christ
Roger