Open Theism

[PennEd]

God knew the end from the beginning...explain what you think that means? Scripture plainly states that God has chosen to limit His knowledge to future decisions of man based upon hearing His word. Scripture plainly states that our sins and iniquities He remembers no more. God has chosen to limit His knowledge of my sin life. Praise God He remembers it no more! He never looks at me as the filthy sinner I am, but through the lens of His righteousness because of the cross!

He CHOOSES not to remember. That is different than being UNABLE to remember. And He is going to choose to remember on Judgement Day for the unbeliever. For the saved, all He has to do is look down at his hands, feet and side to know why THEY are with Him. Do you think He has amnesia and says "Gee, I wonder how I got these holes in my hands"?

Matthew 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

He CHOOSES not to remember. That is different than being UNABLE to remember. And He is going to choose to remember on Judgement Day for the unbeliever. For the saved, all He has to do is look down at his hands, feet and side to know why THEY are with Him. Do you think He has amnesia and says "Gee, I wonder how I got these holes in my hands"?

Matthew 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment

I do not think He chooses not to remember, but rather, He never brings our sins before us ever again. I see this as anthropomorphic language, my friend.

 

[John146]

God cannot learn anything new.

If God cannot learn anything new, as stated in scripture, that means he already knows EVERYTHING THAT CAN OR WILL EVER HAPPEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. That is clear proof he has all knowledge of absolutely everything.

The Bible is very clear on these things, and all of Christendom, except for a few heretics, have agreed on these things for 2 millennia.

...
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God learned plenty when He took on human flesh.

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

God in heaven had never been tempted. Yet, know He knows what it's like to face temptation.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

He was made perfect through suffering. God had never suffered before.

 

[IAm1]

Woe! So many people who want to limit God, and say he is not sovereign.

If God is not sovereign, not totally in control, he is not God! Period.

As for God not suffering, Jesus obviously did! And, lest you have forgotten, he is God.

I did a big research project last semester on the impassability of God. In the past, theologians believed he was incapable of feeling anything, including love. Maybe in the 3rd and 4th centuries.

But, theologians really began to explore the Bible, and found out, that in Jesus, God suffered. Even when Christ was alone and dying in the cross, the Father did not abandon the Son, but rather could not look upon sin. Since the sins of the entire world were upon Jesus, the Father turned away.

In the 1970's, Jurgen Moltmann wrote "The Crucified God," where he proposed that God suffered terribly. I think he went too far. Karl Barth believed if God suffered, then you took away Gidfreedom.

Much more to write, will confine tomorrow, when I am on my computer. It is too late to explain these things on a phone!

If God could not look upon sin, then how is it Christ could look upon sinners? And how then could God look upon any aspect of His creation (us) as we all have sinned. More specifically, where in God's word does it say he cannot look at sin; this would mean all things are not possible for God.

 

[John146]

explain how prophecy can exist ?

Certainly, God can and has declared certain things to come to pass and nothing is going to stop those things from occurring. God will make sure those things come to pass. But not all things are prophecy. God has not declared all things that are going to happen in the future. Some things occur because of man's choices. That's not prophecy or future knowledge.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

He CHOOSES not to remember. That is different than being UNABLE to remember. And He is going to choose to remember on Judgement Day for the unbeliever. For the saved, all He has to do is look down at his hands, feet and side to know why THEY are with Him. Do you think He has amnesia and says "Gee, I wonder how I got these holes in my hands"?

Matthew 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment

I have that guy on ignore, but what verses say God has chosen to limit His knowledge, Brother Ed? I do not know of any.

 

[PennEd]

I do not think He chooses not to remember, but rather, He never brings our sins before us ever again. I see this as anthropomorphic language, my friend.

Totally agree, but those man-made holes in His body are somehow going to remain a testament to us, and Him, what He did for us,

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Totally agree, but those man-made holes in His body are somehow going to remain a testament to us, and Him, what He did for us,

Fair point.

 

[PennEd]

I have that guy on ignore, but what verses say God has chosen to limit His knowledge, Brother Ed? I do not know of any.

Isaiah 43:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;
And I will not remember your sins.

 

[John146]

Isaiah 43:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;
And I will not remember your sins.

To allow man to define God from our logic, and then place God in ou logical definition is not right. We need to allow Scripture to define God and His attributes.

From this passage, one cannot define God’s knowledge as everything past, present and future.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Isaiah 43:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;
And I will not remember your sins.

Again, it’s my opinion that is anthropomorphic language my friend.

 

[IAm1]

Isaiah 43:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;
And I will not remember your sins.

Choosing not to remember, and limiting knowledge are two different things. God is all knowing, not all forgetful. A blot is a dark mark or stain that hides, or obscures. From a new testament view one might say that it is Christ's blood that covers (blots out) our transgressions, better yet it removes our sin.

 

[John146]

Again, it’s my opinion that is anthropomorphic language my friend.

Why anthropomorphic language? Why not just believe the Scripture?

That’s what bothersome. When we read Scripture that seems to go against our theology, instead believing the Scripture and changing our theology, we come up with ways to explain away the clear meaning of the text.

 

[IAm1]

Isaiah 43:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;
And I will not remember your sins.

Choosing not to remember, and limiting knowledge are two different things. God is all knowing, not all forgetful. A blot is a dark mark or stain that hides, or obscures. From a new testament point of view one might say that it is Christ's blood that covers (blots out) our transgressions; better yet it removes our sin. This does not mean He cannot remember, but chooses not to. Look at Peter, he denied Christ x3, and even after Peter would have been forgiven by Jesus, Peter was very possibly being reminded of his sin (John 21:15-17) to bring about a greater cause and effect.

 

[Endoscopy]

Not one Scripture quoted. We can discuss if you post Scripture.

Here are 2 verses.

Genesis 1:1 niv
1. In the begining God created the heavens and earth.

Isaiah 46 NIV

8. “Remember this, keep it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels.
9. Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.

In proof of this there are codes found in the Torah. Here is a file I keep about them.
_____
The books I have are:
The Bible Code
263 pages
Bible Code II the Countdown
291 pages
Both by Michael Drosnin

Bible Prophecy Proved Through The Mysterious Bible Codes
192 pages
By Grant R. Jeffrey

In these books the awesome foreknowledge of God is proven. A Bible Code is found in the Old Testament by starting with an original language text starting with a letter and using an interval counting forwards or backwards finding a message. In the Torah 20th century mens names with birth and death dates were found. In 2 messianic scriptures the name of Jesus with "it is he" and the 11 names of his disciples with the name of the one replacing Judas listed. Only 11 because 2 had the same name. Many other codes were found.

God caused the authors of those books write them with those codes embedded. Thus proving they were authored by God.

The first codes were found by rabbis looking at the beginning of the 5 books of the Torah. 4 had one word while the fifth had a different word. This caused the Israeli Institute similar to MIT in the US to have some some programing students create a software program to search the books of the Old Testament for more codes book by book. They released the program for anyone who wanted it. Thus the above books about the codes were created.

 

[Endoscopy]

Choosing not to remember, and limiting knowledge are two different things. God is all knowing, not all forgetful. A blot is a dark mark or stain that hides, or obscures. From a new testament view one might say that it is Christ's blood that covers (blots out) our transgressions, better yet it removes our sin.

The concept goes back to the sacrifices in the Old Testament. For our sins to be forgiven there has to be blood shed. They would yearly sacrifice an animal. The preferred one was an unblemished lamb. Others were acceptable for those not able to buy one. Jesus became the Unblemished Lamb of God who shed his blood for our sins.

 

[Endoscopy]

open theism definately got some scripture behind it, as do all other systems. The ones that say "I know now" (God speaking) or God changing His mind or giving someone extra lifetime or the case of Nineveh etc.

The problem with it is that there are scriptures DIRECTLY contradicting it.
For example we are told Paul was chosen from birth, and the psalmist says God knew him before he was born, HOW could that be possible with open theism? Where God doesnt really know anyone until they are born and God "learns about them" by what they do in time?

Ephesians 1 is also a great refutation of that idea because it says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

The flaw in the argument is God knew the end from the beginning. Whether he foresaw or forced the events is part of the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate. Either way everything is going according to God's plan. Your verse supports that view.

 

[posthuman]

Certainly, God can and has declared certain things to come to pass and nothing is going to stop those things from occurring. God will make sure those things come to pass. But not all things are prophecy. God has not declared all things that are going to happen in the future. Some things occur because of man's choices. That's not prophecy or future knowledge.

how do you explain His foreknowledge ((re: Romans 8:29-30))?

if it's not because He chooses and brings it about ((re: 1 Peter 1:5, kept by His power)) but because He looks into the future and beholds my choices, then isn't He knowing things you are saying 'knowledge' of cannot possibly exist?

 

[posthuman]

Choosing not to remember, and limiting knowledge are two different things. God is all knowing, not all forgetful. A blot is a dark mark or stain that hides, or obscures. From a new testament view one might say that it is Christ's blood that covers (blots out) our transgressions, better yet it removes our sin.

well if He removes my sin, are we talking about blotting out from His memory or choosing to ignore?

here's a question perhaps more to the point: does *anything* have existence if God Himself does not actively keep it in His mind? in Him all things have their substance and are held together. if He doesn't *remember* your sin does it actually exist or is it a temporal illusion?

 

[posthuman]

The concept goes back to the sacrifices in the Old Testament. For our sins to be forgiven there has to be blood shed. They would yearly sacrifice an animal. The preferred one was an unblemished lamb. Others were acceptable for those not able to buy one. Jesus became the Unblemished Lamb of God who shed his blood for our sins.

it goes to the cross too. why did the thief ask the Son of God to "remember" him?