Rightly divided

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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They didn't keep the law with their own strength. Who do you think gave them the law. It was Jesus Christ. It was with the strength of Jesus Christ that they were able to keep the law and they were considered blameless in the sight of the Lord. That means that because they kept the law, when Jesus was crucified and brought about the atonement, they were swept up in that saving process and were saved, even though they lived their entire lives under the law.
Do you have Scripture that states that Jesus Christ gave those OT saints strength to keep the law? There were many who did not and were cutoff from Israel.
 

Matthew55

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Dec 29, 2018
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The law could never take away sin. One could attain righteousness under the law, but it was self righteousness before God through believing God and obeying His word. Christ ended the law for righteousness sake. God’s righteousness is found through Jesus Christ.

The righteousness under the law by keeping the ordinances, provided safety from God’s wrath upon death until God’s righteousness showed up in the man Christ Jesus.
Sorry, but righteousness does not always equate to "self righteousness". That is one way you dodge the good works admonitions in the bible. Just because someone does a good work, it does not automatically fall under the title of "self righteousness". As Jesus says, you better be more righteous than the scribes or you will not have eternal life.
Matthew 5:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And I would not be dismissing any of the words of Jesus.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Sorry, but righteousness does not always equate to "self righteousness". That is one way you dodge the good works admonitions in the bible. Just because someone does a good work, it does not automatically fall under the title of "self righteousness". As Jesus says, you better be more righteous than the scribes or you will not have eternal life.
Matthew 5:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And I would not be dismissing any of the words of Jesus.
There is self righteousness through the law and God’s righteousness through Jesus Christ.
 

Matthew55

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Dec 29, 2018
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Do you have Scripture that states that Jesus Christ gave those OT saints strength to keep the law? There were many who did not and were cutoff from Israel.
You are right of course, but there were thousands that did stay clean towards the Lord:
1 Kings 19:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Read all of 19 for context. But this is saying that there were at least 7,000 in Israel that still kept the law of Moses and love the Lord of Israel, who is Jesus Christ, even at a very wicked time in Israel, the Lord still had some that loved and worshipped him.

At the time of the atonement, these people would have probably been those resurrected in the first resurrection and came forward from their graves and went into the city of Jerusalem, and were saved into the Kingdom of God with Eternal Life.
 

Matthew55

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There is self righteousness through the law and God’s righteousness through Jesus Christ.
There can be self righteousness in anything, even in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, if someone is so proud that they were chosen to be saved by grace.
 

Matthew55

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Dec 29, 2018
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Again, bwhen I told John146 'I disagree', I was referring to our whole conversation and his position.
When it comes to the Book of James, I agree with it, or are you trying to force a disagreement out of me towards James?
I believe that is a good position to take. Thank you.
 

Matthew55

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I’m Not talking about salvation. As you should know, I don’t believe they were “saved” eternally upon death like you and I. The best they could earn is escaping eternal condemnation and being kept safe in Abraham’s bosom. If they were saved, they would have been present with the Lord upon death.

One could attain righteousness under the law by keeping the ordinances. However, this was self righteousness through obedience and not God’s righteousness through Jesus Christ.
Tell me which one of these men will go to hell and which one will have eternal life:

1) A man believes in Christ and is baptized by the Holy Spirit and brings upon him the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Then the rest of his life he sins at will and in fact, finally rejects Jesus Christ as his savior.

2) A man lives the Law of Moses and his whole life, obeys the Lord and is counted as perfect in the sight of the Lord. (Job 1:1)
 
Dec 9, 2011
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They didn't keep the law with their own strength. Who do you think gave them the law. It was Jesus Christ. It was with the strength of Jesus Christ that they were able to keep the law and they were considered blameless in the sight of the Lord. That means that because they kept the law, when Jesus was crucified and brought about the atonement, they were swept up in that saving process and were saved, even though they lived their entire lives under the law.
It was the strength of JESUS that they kept the law?
It would be better to say that we could not keep the law as men but JESUS being fully GOD and fully Man kept the law as the son of man and took the power that satin gained that adam handed to him back,by paying for sin for us with HIS blood,having mercy on those who had violated the law which meant death and taking our place on the cross and CHANGED the old covenant to a new covenant,now the Issue Is no longer sin but now faith In the SON of GOD.

ALL the law and the prophets are summed up In one word,love.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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A doctrine often overlooked is the doctrine of the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Christ that justifies the believer was not available until after the resurrection. Before the resurrection man was justified by his own individual faith which required obedience, faith requires evidence. Even then, man's justification could only lead to self righteousness under the law which could never take away sin, but could keep the faithful servant from condemnation in Abraham's bosom upon death.

The faith of Jesus Christ is God's righteousness without the law available to those who trust in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Abraham is a type of believer in the OT but is not identical to the NT believer. Paul uses him in type to explain what we have available now. Abraham did not have God's righteousness through the faith of Christ.
I would think there is a need to expound more on this “faith of Christ” since it seems to me are in contradictory with what it meant. That being said justification through individual’s faith requiring obedience meaning faith + works = justification during the OT or this justification by faith(agent) requires works as evidence (fruit) which the OT saints and even today is the same. The only difference is that the works of Christ in the cross of Calvary was not yet done during the O.T times to be the basis of one’s faith so that the O.T. is but a promise and anyone’s faith is looking forward whereas; the NT is its fulfilment and faith is said to be looking to what has been done at the cross of Calvary, yet then again, salvation is always by grace through faith throughout all the ages.

This is too obvious, certainly Abraham is not the type, but rather he is the father of faith. He exhibits the justification by faith. So far the terminology for the “justification” of works as set forth in the book of James is not referring to the justification by faith in regards to righteousness of God. The justification in James simply validates faith. Good works are evidences/validates the faith which holds true throughout all the dispensation.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Hi john 14:6

John, consider you as dear brother in Christ and comrade in the Bible Version issue or in the defense of the KJV, however, I get some notice following some of your post regards to the "faith of" Christ. I do believe that the KJV has its own built- in dictionary so that words or phrases hard to be understood is made clearer using this method. Using the method is quite clear and simple yet if I am not mistaken, you sometime ignore it. If we are going to study "faith of" makes clear and easily understood to simply mean "believe in" or "faith in" and no complicated things out there.

God bless
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,176
3,700
113
Sorry, but righteousness does not always equate to "self righteousness". That is one way you dodge the good works admonitions in the bible. Just because someone does a good work, it does not automatically fall under the title of "self righteousness". As Jesus says, you better be more righteous than the scribes or you will not have eternal life.
Matthew 5:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And I would not be dismissing any of the words of Jesus.
Btw, eternal life does not equate to kingdom of heaven
Tell me which one of these men will go to hell and which one will have eternal life:

1) A man believes in Christ and is baptized by the Holy Spirit and brings upon him the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Then the rest of his life he sins at will and in fact, finally rejects Jesus Christ as his savior.

2) A man lives the Law of Moses and his whole life, obeys the Lord and is counted as perfect in the sight of the Lord. (Job 1:1)
#1
#2 is counted as unrighteous in God's eyes, the law can never take away sin. Christ ended the law for righteousness sake.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,176
3,700
113
I would think there is a need to expound more on this “faith of Christ” since it seems to me are in contradictory with what it meant. That being said justification through individual’s faith requiring obedience meaning faith + works = justification during the OT or this justification by faith(agent) requires works as evidence (fruit) which the OT saints and even today is the same. The only difference is that the works of Christ in the cross of Calvary was not yet done during the O.T times to be the basis of one’s faith so that the O.T. is but a promise and anyone’s faith is looking forward whereas; the NT is its fulfilment and faith is said to be looking to what has been done at the cross of Calvary, yet then again, salvation is always by grace through faith throughout all the ages.

This is too obvious, certainly Abraham is not the type, but rather he is the father of faith. He exhibits the justification by faith. So far the terminology for the “justification” of works as set forth in the book of James is not referring to the justification by faith in regards to righteousness of God. The justification in James simply validates faith. Good works are evidences/validates the faith which holds true throughout all the dispensation.
Faith needs validation. Christ's faith was validated by His complete obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. That's the only faith that justifies the believer. All we are asked to do is believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. No amount of works validates our salvation.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
There can be self righteousness in anything, even in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, if someone is so proud that they were chosen to be saved by grace.
Anythng done in or for Self righteousness Is sin. Thus there is no self righteousness in grace.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Tell me which one of these men will go to hell and which one will have eternal life:

1) A man believes in Christ and is baptized by the Holy Spirit and brings upon him the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Then the rest of his life he sins at will and in fact, finally rejects Jesus Christ as his savior.

2) A man lives the Law of Moses and his whole life, obeys the Lord and is counted as perfect in the sight of the Lord. (Job 1:1)
You make the same error with Job 1:1 as you did with Luke 1:6 ! You dont keep reading the story my friend!
Is unbelief a sin? (Luke 1:20)

Luke 1:20
And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.”

Job 42:6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

The Bible is clear, EVERYONE has sinned.

Romans 3:10
as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

In light of these Scriptures, I ask you Matthew: Do you believe that there are people in this world (aside from Jesus) who have NEVER sinned?
How can it be? In light of the testimony of the Scriptures?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Yep he did,

But he still did not make you alive as long as you were under the penalty of sin, justification had to occure first.

You can post against this all you want, it will not change that fact
According to the scriptures, the fact that eternal justification took place on the cross will not change. Man can justify himself before man, but not before God.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
According to the scriptures, the fact that eternal justification took place on the cross will not change. Man can justify himself before man, but not before God.
It was purchased on the cross, yes, But it is not given UNTIL a person recieved it in faith. (God will nto force it on people)

We are justified by faith, If justification of all the elect was accomplished and given AT the point of the cross. All the elect would be born alive to God. Because the penalty of sin would not be applied to them

You still have people made alive who are UBNDER THE PENALTY OF SIN.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Yep he did,

But he still did not make you alive as long as you were under the penalty of sin, justification had to occure first.

You can post against this all you want, it will not change that fact
In a covenant relationship at the event of the cross God's elect were made just and God looked upon them as holy and without blame. In regeneration (Eph 2:5) that covenant relationship became reality when we were transformed from being spiritually dead in sins to life in Christ.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
In a covenant relationship at the event of the cross God's elect were made just and God looked upon them as holy and without blame. In regeneration (Eph 2:5) that covenant relationship became reality when we were transformed from being spiritually dead in sins to life in Christ.
One can not be regenerated UNTIL one is justified. One is justified by faith. Hence eph 2: 5 is not supporting your case, Eph 2: 5 is possible because of the cross.

But again, God will not force salvation on you..he can not call himself a God of love, then force his salvation on people. A loving person wants the people to recieve their gift.. And he will offer it to them,

If anyone can never understand or recieve that gift. Then it is not really a gift, it is a fraudulent offering which is relaly not what it is claimed to be.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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It was purchased on the cross, yes, But it is not given UNTIL a person recieved it in faith. (God will nto force it on people)

We are justified by faith, If justification of all the elect was accomplished and given AT the point of the cross. All the elect would be born alive to God. Because the penalty of sin would not be applied to them

You still have people made alive who are UBNDER THE PENALTY OF SIN.
It was given, in covenant, at the cross because God said his Son's death on the cross made those that he died for holy and without blame. It became a reality to them at the time of their regeneration. The covenant God made with his Son was to secure their home in heaven. That is a security that they never lose. Non of God's elect, even though they were born by a natural birth as sinners because of Adams sin will not die before they are regenerated.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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One can not be regenerated UNTIL one is justified. One is justified by faith. Hence eph 2: 5 is not supporting your case, Eph 2: 5 is possible because of the cross.

But again, God will not force salvation on you..he can not call himself a God of love, then force his salvation on people. A loving person wants the people to recieve their gift.. And he will offer it to them,

If anyone can never understand or recieve that gift. Then it is not really a gift, it is a fraudulent offering which is relaly not what it is claimed to be.
Our faith does not justify us before God. We are not given faith until regeneration. It is a fruit of the Spirit which is given at regeneration. The justification by the faith of Christ is our only justification before God.