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Hey! Y-Y... PTL!
Whether the Rapture is pre, mid, or post trib, the 7 yr or 3.5 yr math to determine the date of Jesus' 2nd coming, because:
Mt 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
There is therefore no way for us to know how much or how little the Lord has shortened the days of the tribulation for the elect's sake to calculate.
Maranatha!
I will try and make the timing of the first resurrection and the 1,000 years of Rev 20 as simple as I can.
Rev 11: 18 tells us, "...the time of the dead, that they should be judged..." Rev 11: 18 is talking about the seventh trumpet. Where is the only place in the Bible that we are explicitly told the dead are being judged besides this verse? Rev 20: 11-15 at the Great White Throne judgment.
We know that the Great White Throne judgment is after the "first resurrection" and the 1,000 years.
Therefore, using simple logic, the seventh trumpet in Rev 11: 18 is after the "first resurrection" and the 1,000 years.
This means the "first resurrection" and 1,000 years were entirely completed before we got to the seventh trumpet.
The "first resurrection" can only be spiritual. It cannot be a physical resurrection. The 1,000 years is symbolic for our current age.
No worries. We all get busy with stuff. God bless.
Still living in fantasy land.
God bless you anyways brother in your search for truth in the Scriptures.
Lol flippant is what you just said. I wasn't being flippant at all, I was using a bible writing style to make a point. I don't know what that style's called but God uses it throughout the bible when he says things so utterly ridiculous that people know it's talking about a spiritual aspect rather than a literal one.
The timing of verse 18 comes at the time the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ... That happened at the cross didn't it? I mean what else does Christ have to do to purchase this world?I will try and make the timing of the first resurrection and the 1,000 years of Rev 20 as simple as I can.
Rev 11: 18 tells us, "...the time of the dead, that they should be judged..." Rev 11: 18 is talking about the seventh trumpet. Where is the only place in the Bible that we are explicitly told the dead are being judged besides this verse? Rev 20: 11-15 at the Great White Throne judgment.
We know that the Great White Throne judgment is after the "first resurrection" and the 1,000 years.
Therefore, using simple logic, the seventh trumpet in Rev 11: 18 is after the "first resurrection" and the 1,000 years.
This means the "first resurrection" and 1,000 years were entirely completed before we got to the seventh trumpet.
The "first resurrection" can only be spiritual. It cannot be a physical resurrection. The 1,000 years is symbolic for our current age.
No worries. We all get busy with stuff. God bless.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
^ Luke 19:11-27 -
The Parable of the Ten Minas
([see also] Matthew 25:14-30 a part of the Olivet Discourse [2nd Coming to the earth context])
11 While they were hearing these things, having proceeded, He spoke a parable because of His being near Jerusalem and of their thinking that the kingdom of God is about to appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said, “A certain man of noble birth proceeded to a distant country, to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 And having called ten of his servants, he gave to them ten minas and said to them, ‘Do business until that I come back.’
14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We are not willing for this man to reign over us.’ [this is reflective of Joseph's *FIRST* dream (Jesus' First Advent), Gen37:7-8 (Joseph's SECOND dream correlating with Jesus' SECOND advent , Rev12, etc)]
15 And it came to pass, on his returning, having received the kingdom, that he directed these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, in order that he might know what each had gained by trading.
16 And the first came up, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has produced ten more minas.’
17 And He said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you were faithful in very little, you are to be having authority over ten cities.’
18 And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’
19 And he said to this one also, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’
20 And another came, saying, ‘Lord, behold your mina, which I kept lying away in a handkerchief. 21 For I was afraid of you, because you are a harsh man. You take up what you did not lay down, and you reap what you did not sow.’
22 He says to him, ‘Out of your mouth I will judge you, evil servant. You knew that I am a harsh man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not give my money to the bank, and I having come, might have collected it with interest?’
24 And to those standing by he said, ‘Take from him the mina, and give it to the one having the ten minas.’
25 And they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas!’
26 ‘I say to you that to everyone having will be given, but from the one not having, even that which he has will be taken away. 27 Furthermore, these enemies of mine, those not having been willing for me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.’”
The Parable of the Ten Minas
([see also] Matthew 25:14-30 a part of the Olivet Discourse [2nd Coming to the earth context])
11 While they were hearing these things, having proceeded, He spoke a parable because of His being near Jerusalem and of their thinking that the kingdom of God is about to appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said, “A certain man of noble birth proceeded to a distant country, to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 And having called ten of his servants, he gave to them ten minas and said to them, ‘Do business until that I come back.’
14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We are not willing for this man to reign over us.’ [this is reflective of Joseph's *FIRST* dream (Jesus' First Advent), Gen37:7-8 (Joseph's SECOND dream correlating with Jesus' SECOND advent , Rev12, etc)]
15 And it came to pass, on his returning, having received the kingdom, that he directed these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, in order that he might know what each had gained by trading.
16 And the first came up, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has produced ten more minas.’
17 And He said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you were faithful in very little, you are to be having authority over ten cities.’
18 And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’
19 And he said to this one also, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’
20 And another came, saying, ‘Lord, behold your mina, which I kept lying away in a handkerchief. 21 For I was afraid of you, because you are a harsh man. You take up what you did not lay down, and you reap what you did not sow.’
22 He says to him, ‘Out of your mouth I will judge you, evil servant. You knew that I am a harsh man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not give my money to the bank, and I having come, might have collected it with interest?’
24 And to those standing by he said, ‘Take from him the mina, and give it to the one having the ten minas.’
25 And they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas!’
26 ‘I say to you that to everyone having will be given, but from the one not having, even that which he has will be taken away. 27 Furthermore, these enemies of mine, those not having been willing for me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.’”
^ EDIT TO ADD:... and the OTHER "RETURN" passage being Luke 12:36-48 (parallel to the above)… saying, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (THEN the meal.../THEN the "authority over" granted/dealt out...)
[see also Rev2:26-27 and Rev19:15b "And HE SHALL [future to that point in time] rule/shepherd them [the nations] with a rod [sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]…" (but this is after His "return" )
[see also Rev2:26-27 and Rev19:15b "And HE SHALL [future to that point in time] rule/shepherd them [the nations] with a rod [sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]…" (but this is after His "return" )
^ Additionally, the word "King" is only used 2 times in all of the epistles, and both of them are "future" tense/contexts (1Tim6:15, for one).
In Revelation 11, the two witnesses are killed by the beast who rises from the bottomless pit.I will try and make the timing of the first resurrection and the 1,000 years of Rev 20 as simple as I can.
Rev 11: 18 tells us, "...the time of the dead, that they should be judged..." Rev 11: 18 is talking about the seventh trumpet. Where is the only place in the Bible that we are explicitly told the dead are being judged besides this verse? Rev 20: 11-15 at the Great White Throne judgment.
We know that the Great White Throne judgment is after the "first resurrection" and the 1,000 years.
Therefore, using simple logic, the seventh trumpet in Rev 11: 18 is after the "first resurrection" and the 1,000 years.
This means the "first resurrection" and 1,000 years were entirely completed before we got to the seventh trumpet.
The beast who rises from the bottomless pit is a another description for the beast who rises from the sea in Revelation 13.
The beast with ten heads who rises from the sea/the bottomless pit is allotted 42 months, after which time the judgment sits and rules to take his kingdom away (Daniel 7:26), and then award the kingdom to the saints (Daniel 7:27).
There is then only a 7 year interval in Revelation 11:1-18; the 3.5 years in which the two witnesses testify in Jerusalem, and the following 3.5 year reign of the beast, at the conclusion of which the millennium kingdom on earth commences.
Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
So you are saying the seventh trumpet happened at the cross? That would mean the first six trumpets happened in the Old Testament. That means the dead of Rev 20 were judged at the cross. That means the first resurrection and the 1,000 years all happened in the Old Testament before the cross.
Remember the dead are judged after the 1,000 years according to Rev 20: 11-15. The seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years since we see the dead being judged there.
God's kingdom (the church) co-exists during this current age with the fallen kingdoms of this world. That's not the same as " the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ".
That happens when the governments/kingdoms of this world are destroyed at His second coming which is the seventh trumpet. Then only God's kingdom will remain in the new heavens and earth.
Sigh. I don't know how to make it any clearer. Let me try again:
Rev 11: 18, "the time of the dead, that they should be judged..." THE DEAD ARE BEING JUDGED AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET!
Rev 20: 11-15 is "The Great White Throne Judgment" THE DEAD ARE BEING JUDGED AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS!
THEREFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET IS AFTER THE FIRST RESURRECTION AND 1,000 YEARS OF REV 20! AFTER, AFTER, AFTER!!!
If Christ's second coming is after the first resurrection and 1,000 years of Rev 20 then He can't becoming back to start one. Is He starting a 2nd 1,000 years?
I'm not using caps because I'm angry. I'm using caps for emphasis because I am hoping people will understand this.
^ It seems to me that at the 7th Trumpet (rather than being AFTER the 1000 years), it is the "living dead [unsaved]" [persons who are still-unsaved, at that point] who are being judged... whereas at the GWTj (1000 years later) it is the "dead dead [unsaved of all times]" [those persons who were previously dead/deceased] who are being judged (final sentence carried out [lake of fire]). Note the TWO "punish/punished" in Isa24:21-22[23] separated by the "[and after] MANY DAYS" (i.e. the MK); parallel with Rev19:19/16:14-16/Rev20 and then the GWTj (1000 yrs after that)
So you are saying the seventh trumpet happened at the cross? That would mean the first six trumpets happened in the Old Testament. That means the dead of Rev 20 were judged at the cross. That means the first resurrection and the 1,000 years all happened in the Old Testament before the cross.
Remember the dead are judged after the 1,000 years according to Rev 20: 11-15. The seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years since we see the dead being judged there.
God's kingdom (the church) co-exists during this current age with the fallen kingdoms of this world. That's not the same as " the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ".
That happens when the governments/kingdoms of this world are destroyed at His second coming which is the seventh trumpet. Then only God's kingdom will remain in the new heavens and earth.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Acts says the sun turned into darkness and the moon turned to blood at Pentecost. How can I believe that the sixth seal happened at any other time than on the day of Pentecost?
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
You're basing your belief on the fact that the resurrection is a one time event, it's not. The dead were raised and ascended with Christ. You're falling for the same thing Hymenaeus and Philetus fell for.Sigh. I don't know how to make it any clearer. Let me try again:
Rev 11: 18, "the time of the dead, that they should be judged..." THE DEAD ARE BEING JUDGED AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET!
Rev 20: 11-15 is "The Great White Throne Judgment" THE DEAD ARE BEING JUDGED AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS!
THEREFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET IS AFTER THE FIRST RESURRECTION AND 1,000 YEARS OF REV 20! AFTER, AFTER, AFTER!!!
If Christ's second coming is after the first resurrection and 1,000 years of Rev 20 then He can't becoming back to start one. Is He starting a 2nd 1,000 years?
I'm not using caps because I'm angry. I'm using caps for emphasis because I am hoping people will understand this.
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
They saw the resurrection of Christ and the saints, and like you, they thought the resurrection was a one time event and they just witnessed the resurrection and thought it was over and done.
I'm telling you delirious the resurrection takes place in 2 parts - the firstfruits and then the main harvest at the end.
Isaiah 24:21-22 [esv] - [brackets mine; bold and underline mine]
21 On that day [or, IN THAT DAY] the Lord will punish
the host of heaven, in heaven,
and the kings of the earth, on the earth. [parallel with Rev19:19 / 16:14-16]
22 They will be gathered together
as prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished. [after the 1000 yrs, at the GWTj, final sentence carried out]
23 Then the moon will be confounded
and the sun ashamed,
for the Lord of hosts reigns
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and his glory will be before his elders. [parallel with Matt25:31-34/19:28 as well as Isa27:12-13/Matt24:29-31 (2nd Coming to the earth contexts [not "rapture" contexts]), … oh, and 1Cor15:25-28 also]
I am not denying that the time of the dead that they should be judged is happening in Revelation 11:18; I am just staying on the fact that the beasts reign has only 3.5 years allotted to it, and that it is preceded by 3.5 years in which the two witnesses are testifying in Jerusalem. As such the time of the dead in which they are judged is after 7 years, and not after the millennium.Sigh. I don't know how to make it any clearer. Let me try again:
Rev 11: 18, "the time of the dead, that they should be judged..." THE DEAD ARE BEING JUDGED AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET!
Rev 20: 11-15 is "The Great White Throne Judgment" THE DEAD ARE BEING JUDGED AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS!
THEREFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET IS AFTER THE FIRST RESURRECTION AND 1,000 YEARS OF REV 20! AFTER, AFTER, AFTER!!!
If Christ's second coming is after the first resurrection and 1,000 years of Rev 20 then He can't becoming back to start one. Is He starting a 2nd 1,000 years?
I'm not using caps because I'm angry. I'm using caps for emphasis because I am hoping people will understand this.
In Daniel 12:2 we see a resurrection, some of whom destined to glory and everlasting life, while others to everlasting contempt.
When this resurrection occurs is during the worst of times for the people of God when Michael stands up (Daniel 12:1).
The worst of times for Gods people and Michael standing up, which is then followed by the resurrection in Daniel 12:2 is not occurring at the end of the millennium reign.
As I see it, the resurrection of those to everlasting life in Daniel 12:2 corresponds with the time in Revelation 11:18 with the rewarding of the saints, which also correlates with when the kingdom is awarded to the saints in Daniel 7:27, which follows the judgment sitting and ruling to take away the beasts kingdom to consume and destroy it unto the end (Daniel 7:26).
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Rev 11: 18, "...
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
This verse only has 2 possible ways of being interpreted. It either means physically dead or spiritually dead. Let's consider the 2 possibilities:
1. Physically Dead - If it means physically dead then the verse is talking about everybody who has ever lived and died on planet earth from Adam and Eve until the seventh trumpet. Who would that consist of? Obviously both saved and unsaved people. This fits exactly what the rest of Rev 11: 18 is saying and is the correct interpretation. Righteous people are receiving a positive judgment consisting of "rewards" and the unrighteous people are receiving a negative judgment of "destruction".
2. Spiritually Dead - This is your suggestion. If it is spiritually dead people it cannot be talking about everybody but only the wicked. The righteous are not "spiritually dead". If it is only the wicked then why are the righteous mentioned receiving "rewards"?
When you go to a court of law you stand before a judge. If the judgment is found in your favor you receive a reward. That reward may be money, property or just vindication. A reward is a positive judgment. If the judgment goes against you then you pay a penalty. That penalty could be money, jail time or a death sentence. A penalty is a negative judgment. This is what we see happening in Rev 11: 18. The dead are being judged, both righteous and unrighteous.
The only possible interpretation of Rev 11: 18 is that this is the physically dead which includes everybody.
Disagree in that context. I see the chronology to be that the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]" is at the precise mid-point of the 7-yrs (mid-trib); whereas the "7th Trumpet" events is closer to 3/4 of the way through (with the 2 Witnesses' 1260-days STRADDLING the two halves, and their conclusion occurring at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time frame [however, the "42 mos" mentioned in 11:2 refers solely to the 2nd half of the 7 yrs]). I believe that ALL the saints of ALL time periods will be [or will have been resurrected (or still-living) and] present FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK (i.e. "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His "return" there]," aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"), NONE excluded.