Not By Works

[ReturnToGod]

Just one important verse you may want to consider: John: 3:16 No where does God's Word tell us that we have to do anything to "keep salvation." There is nothing on this earth we can do

Star, the verse you quote renders the Greek verb believe in the continuous present tense. This means that the more accurate rendering of the passage is: That whosoever is continuously believing in Him should not perish (aor., once for all), but be having everlasting life. We stand or fail on our faith but in scripture we see dead faith, lost faith, shipwrecked faith, compromised faith, and faith moved to something else (our works for example). The Holy Spirit is there to help us thank God. God Bless

 

[posthuman]

..At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

the saying here seems to make it very clear that "stands firm to the end" means to stand firm in love, warm, not growing cold; not to fall away in hate and betrayal.

isn't that interesting; the greatest commandment. love. _________________

 

[dcontroversal]

Star, the verse you quote renders the Greek verb believe in the continuous present tense. This means that the more accurate rendering of the passage is: That whosoever is continuously believing in Him should not perish (aor., once for all), but be having everlasting life. We stand or fail on our faith but in scripture we see dead faith, lost faith, shipwrecked faith, compromised faith, and faith moved to something else (our works for example). The Holy Spirit is there to help us thank God. God Bless

Hahhahahahaha you just stated that you do not understand Greek verb tense....Perfect tense Greek verbs show a present continuing RESULT FROM A PAST COMPLETED ACTION...

Jesus begins
Jesus finishes
Jesus completes

and if we abide not HE REMAINS FAITHFUL BECAUSE HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF

HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS APPLIED BY FAITH <-the same faith he BEGINS, FINISHES AND COMPLETES

You have a lot to learn man!!

 

[posthuman]

just posting because i wanted to put these two quotes next to each other and see what they look like

The Modern Church says that there is no relationship between faith and works

You are putting words in my mouth. I want people to live a life consistent with their faith

 

[dcontroversal]

just posting because i wanted to put these two quotes next to each other and see what they look like

The first quote is false on two levels

a. Most churches teach a faith works cafe blend false gosple

b. The churches that teach the biblical version of saved by grace thru faith eternally teach that good works are the result of salvation, not for or to keep salvation.

So....his entire premise is false! and nothing more than an accusatory falsehood designed to cast doubt on the latter while elevating the first into the "truth category"....which is also false!

 

[ReturnToGod]

If you believe a perfect obedience in regards to the Holy spirit is what keeps you saved, you are incorrect... It will always be the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ

It is not a matter of being perfect. It is a matter of submittin

just posting because i wanted to put these two quotes next to each other and see what they look like

Right I reject based on scripture that there is no relationship between faith and works. Scripture teaches that faith and works go together. The logical conclusion of what the Modern Church mostly teaches is that one may have faith yet live in rebellion to God and remain saved.

 

[ReturnToGod]

The first quote is false on two levels

a. Most churches teach a faith works cafe blend false gosple

b. The churches that teach the biblical version of saved by grace thru faith eternally teach that good works are the result of salvation, not for or to keep salvation. Works are the result of salvation, NO doubt. But you defend you can have one without the other invalidating your own claim. Stop and think through logically what you are saying.

So....his entire premise is false! and nothing more than an accusatory falsehood designed to cast doubt on the latter while elevating the first into the "truth category"....which is also false!

Lie

 

[dcontroversal]

Lie

Not hardly.....absolute truth..not my fault you choke on it! And you better go back and remove your quote from my quote...you added to what I said which makes you the liar and deceiver and makes it look like I said something I did not say!

 

[ReturnToGod]

Who was given a license to sin? No one has a license to sin that I see..

Grieving a quenching him does nto mean he leave you, It just means he is griebed. As a parent, I am grieved when my kids do wrong, it does not mean I leave them and kick them out of my family.

By the way, your quote of Romans 8:1 is the version from the new Bibles. KJV renders it differently. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. " Romans 4 emphasizes the same "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. " But never make the mistake that being indwelt is walking with the Holy Spirit.

 

[ReturnToGod]

Not hardly.....absolute truth..not my fault you choke on it! And you better go back and remove your quote from my quote...you added to what I said which makes you the liar and deceiver and makes it look like I said something I did not say!

STOP think this through logically. It is WHAT you have LOGICALLY said. if works and faith are completely divorced, it is only LOGICALLY consistent that one may act anyway they want and it does not affect their salvation. Please try to grasp the LOGICAL IMPLICATIONS of what you are saying.

 

[dcontroversal]

Everybody pay heed.....@ReturnToGod added to my post to make it look like I said something I did not say.....the bolded below is his addition and breaks the rules.

dcontroversal said:
The first quote is false on two levels

a. Most churches teach a faith works cafe blend false gosple

b. The churches that teach the biblical version of saved by grace thru faith eternally teach that good works are the result of salvation, not for or to keep salvation. Works are the result of salvation, NO doubt. But you defend you can have one without the other invalidating your own claim. Stop and think through logically what you are saying.

So....his entire premise is false! and nothing more than an accusatory falsehood designed to cast doubt on the latter while elevating the first into the "truth category"....which is also false!

 

[dcontroversal]

STOP think this through logically. It is WHAT you have LOGICALLY said. if works and faith are completely divorced, it is only LOGICALLY consistent that one may act anyway they want and it does not affect their salvation. Please try to grasp the LOGICAL IMPLICATIONS of what you are saying.

No, it is not what I said...quit lying and or putting words in my mouth deceiver!

 

[ReturnToGod]

Everybody pay heed.....@ReturnToGod added to my post to make it look like I said something I did not say.....the bolded below is his addition and breaks the rules.

dcontroversal said:
The first quote is false on two levels

a. Most churches teach a faith works cafe blend false gosple

b. The churches that teach the biblical version of saved by grace thru faith eternally teach that good works are the result of salvation, not for or to keep salvation. Works are the result of salvation, NO doubt. But you defend you can have one without the other invalidating your own claim. Stop and think through logically what you are saying.

So....his entire premise is false! and nothing more than an accusatory falsehood designed to cast doubt on the latter while elevating the first into the "truth category"....which is also false!

untrue; it is the logical extension of what you said.

 

[ReturnToGod]

No, it is not what I said...quit lying and or putting words in my mouth deceiver!

See? You refuse to think though the logical implications of what you are saying. We are done. God Bless.

 

[VCO]

Just to answer this directly, most believe (not saying you) that since works (bad or good) have no bearing on your salvation, LOGICALLY one can sin as much as one wants, be as worldly as one wants, or refuse to be led by the Holy Spirit and remain saved. I ask one simple question: Can a person who has accepted Jesus Christ sin as much as they want and remain saved? Most answer YES; this is true. But if you say no, then you reaffirm the nature of true faith; that it is not some abstract intellectual belief but a faith that results in love, obedience, and works. This is the logical fallacy that those who don't consider ALL of scripture come to. Can even copy an examples..... PS You may want to look up George Sodini's diary entries.

Now I must apologize to you, because I was a little rough on you earlier. So forgive me for not being gentler. I reacted, because I HEARD that SAME OLD LIE that Armenians Churches love to tell, just one too many times. AND HONEST, it is a total lie about our Beliefs. I do not blame you, but the Authors of Sermons you heard, because they were based on FALSE ASSUMPTIONS about our beliefs.

Also, I forgot to mention 1 John 1:9, which has the word CONFESS in it. That word it is in the Greek Present Tense, which is an ONGOING LIFESTYLE of Confessing EVERY NEW Sin we RECOGNIZE IT, that is in our LIVES. That is the biggest reason for my asking you to forgive me. We do not confess old sins over and over, we REPENT and CONFESS NEW SINS as discover them. As we mature SPIRITUALLY, we become more and more aware of what all GOD CONSIDERS SIN. Just when you think you got a small handle on SINS OF COMMISSION, all of a sudden, you find out there are SINS OF OMISSIONS, TOO. So we confess those sins TOO. However that is the Process of Sanctification, as we become more and more like CHRIST Himself. We will not be PERFECT until we GET THAT GLORIFIED BODY LIKE HIS, which will not be able to THINK SIN.

 

[VCO]

I thought to myself... self let's read DC's hopping thread. Oh my goodness, almost 80,000 comments, pages and pages, since you started this about 1.5 years ago. I have to ask... Since you started this thread, has your thoughts on this matter changed at all? I mean, I know you still have the same position but have you been given more insight?

I hope you do not mind my input on that questions too. On the POSITION, NO IT HAS NOT CHANGED A BIT, however, others have brought many Verses to my attention, that add even more to the PROOF of the POSITION, that WORKS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, but everything to do with LOVING GOD and the Brethren. Obedience is produced by our LOVE.

 

[CharliRenee]

I hope you do not mind my input on that questions too. On the POSITION, NO IT HAS NOT CHANGED A BIT, however, others have brought many Verses to my attention, that add even more to the PROOF of the POSITION, that WORKS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, but everything to do with LOVING GOD and the Brethren. Obedience is produced by our LOVE.

Yes, I appreciate your input, tyou.

Love@Obedience is produced by our LOVE.

 

[posthuman]

read "A → B"

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as "A implies B" ​

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or "B results from A" ​

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or "A produces B"​

 

[posthuman]

I thought to myself... self let's read DC's hopping thread. Oh my goodness, almost 80,000 comments, pages and pages, since you started this about 1.5 years ago. I have to ask... Since you started this thread, has your thoughts on this matter changed at all? I mean, I know you still have the same position but have you been given more insight?

((chimes in too))
i haven't read even a third of this thread. but there are some really wonderful posts buried within it, that i have read. i have learned insight and understanding through these, for sure

 

[posthuman]

By the way, your quote of Romans 8:1 is the version from the new Bibles. KJV renders it differently. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. " Romans 4 emphasizes the same "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. " But never make the mistake that being indwelt is walking with the Holy Spirit.

from what i've been told, manuscript evidence makes it clear that what the KJV translated this portion from was the result of copying error, "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" being mistakenly written twice by someone accidentally starting from the wrong line while they were working on duplicating word-for word a previously existing scroll. that it doesn't actually belong in verse 1.

this doesn't change the meaning of the text at all, in fact if you go back to the beginning of this section of rhetoric you see the same argument in the same phrasing made in ch. 6.

what does change the meaning of the text is acting as though this glorious declaration opening chapter 8 has nothing to do with chapter 6 and especially the closing paragraph of chapter 7. the addition of chapters and verses is very unfortunate here. you cannot get to Romans 8:1 without coming through chapters 6-7 and 8:1 is inextricable from 7:14-25 which immediately precedes it. there is no break in rhetoric; 8:1 is the inescapable conclusion of 1:1-7:25