The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation
- Thread starter mobius8curve
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The AC arrives and does wonderful things for the Jews,and starts with the mark. The temple could be later.
Recently the city of david was excavated.
Some say it is the actual temple site.
Personally i don't know.
Both sides make a good case for the temple site,but the point is,it will be a farce since it is OT pattern with animal sacrifice. So the location is,in a sense , moot.
Recently the city of david was excavated.
Some say it is the actual temple site.
Personally i don't know.
Both sides make a good case for the temple site,but the point is,it will be a farce since it is OT pattern with animal sacrifice. So the location is,in a sense , moot.
I honestly cant go there.
Too many grand canyon leaps.
The things surrounding the AC, and israel becoming a nation are a few.
The historicist,i believe,took that position not realizing Israel would be re established and a temple built.
Plus the ENTIRE deal rests on a shaky dating of rev.
If rev is written in the obvious 90s,it is a death blow to historicists
Too many grand canyon leaps.
The things surrounding the AC, and israel becoming a nation are a few.
The historicist,i believe,took that position not realizing Israel would be re established and a temple built.
Plus the ENTIRE deal rests on a shaky dating of rev.
If rev is written in the obvious 90s,it is a death blow to historicists
lol,I think Josephus is a sore subject among many at first. Why is in that it is not inspired scripture but instead the opinion of a man writing a historical account of events. In the past I remember some said to read Josephus and see if you don't agree it is all fulfilled meaning the contents of Revelation. I notice that most who refuse to read it are dispensationist,futurist ect. and will argue that not every stone was overturned so it was not fulfilled completely(some stones still standing ect.)
In the post you quoted from me I ask you why you think I would argue to include Josephus "if I were any type futurist". At times we type/write things and it could be taken more than one way. I ask you what i did "if i were any type futurist" and it could mean I am not a futurist or that i am. Your response seems to indicate that you took it to mean i am not a futurist when I am. So now you know that I am futurist,so why would I argue Josephus be included in a debate if I thought it could or would injure my futurist position?
There are a few things to explain about this, one is Romans 13:1-7 another 1Peter 2:13-14 and Revelation 13:16-17 and another https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage and Josephus wars 2 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html
Wars 2 is about as long as Revelation at 22 chapters but if you read it shows that the mark of the beast,image ect. were not fulfilled in ad66-70 and it will not damage a futurist position in any way but actually support it. You see i see it as a weapon not to be set aside.
Wikipedia about the different positions of Jesus returning ralated to the tribulation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Tribulation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Tribulation
Well, you and I are going to continue to disagree on the location of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," but I'll give a brief summary of verses which I believe show a parallel timing:
Matthew 19:28 -
"28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Luke 22:16,18,30 -
"16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof [that is, 'of the passover'], until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
...
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Matthew 26:29 -
"29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it NEW WITH [G3326 - meta - accompanying] YOU in my Father's kingdom." [note that the tribulation period is when the remnant of Israel come to faith in their Messiah (Jesus Christ) and are led into the New Covenant]
Matthew 25:31-34 [quoted in part] (for TIMING, related to the above) -
"31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all the nations […]" [with v.40 "the least of these My brethren" referring to the remnant of Israel, having come to faith within that future time period, and who are NOT the ones BEING judged/separated in this Sheep & goats judgment (but who these either AIDED/HELPED/BLESSED themselves, or did not)]
...plus the fact that Rev19:7 (re: the "Bride/Wife [singular]" and the "MARRIAGE" itself) being "aorist" (already taken place IN HEAVEN by Rev19 context), whereas Rev19:9 is not aorist, but where He is now heading down TO... and where all of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" contexts show to be taking place upon His "return" to the earth [i.e. Lk12:36-37,38,40; etc..."when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal] and the "INVITIATION" having taken place DURING the trib years (BY the remnant of Israel, primarily--Matt22:7-8's SEQUENCE[70ad events and "THEN SAITH HE TO"]/thus Rev1:1/7:3 "SERVANTS of our God"; and Matt25:1-13's "THEN shall...")
It follows on from "the MARRIAGE" itself. They do not occur simultaneously.
Jesus, in John 2, was attending a "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (where "GUESTS [PLURAL]" are also present), not "the MARRIAGE" itself (pertaining solely to the wedded couple.
)
Matthew 19:28 -
"28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Luke 22:16,18,30 -
"16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof [that is, 'of the passover'], until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
...
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Matthew 26:29 -
"29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it NEW WITH [G3326 - meta - accompanying] YOU in my Father's kingdom." [note that the tribulation period is when the remnant of Israel come to faith in their Messiah (Jesus Christ) and are led into the New Covenant]
Matthew 25:31-34 [quoted in part] (for TIMING, related to the above) -
"31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all the nations […]" [with v.40 "the least of these My brethren" referring to the remnant of Israel, having come to faith within that future time period, and who are NOT the ones BEING judged/separated in this Sheep & goats judgment (but who these either AIDED/HELPED/BLESSED themselves, or did not)]
...plus the fact that Rev19:7 (re: the "Bride/Wife [singular]" and the "MARRIAGE" itself) being "aorist" (already taken place IN HEAVEN by Rev19 context), whereas Rev19:9 is not aorist, but where He is now heading down TO... and where all of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" contexts show to be taking place upon His "return" to the earth [i.e. Lk12:36-37,38,40; etc..."when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal] and the "INVITIATION" having taken place DURING the trib years (BY the remnant of Israel, primarily--Matt22:7-8's SEQUENCE[70ad events and "THEN SAITH HE TO"]/thus Rev1:1/7:3 "SERVANTS of our God"; and Matt25:1-13's "THEN shall...")
It follows on from "the MARRIAGE" itself. They do not occur simultaneously.
Jesus, in John 2, was attending a "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (where "GUESTS [PLURAL]" are also present), not "the MARRIAGE" itself (pertaining solely to the wedded couple.
)Please note that in the following NET both the good and the bad are STILL TOGETHER, which means that when the Angels come to sever the good from the bad they are both still together. The good and the bad get severed on the VERY SAME OCCASION.
Matthew 13:47-49
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a NET, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind. Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered THE GOOD into vessels, but cast THE BAD away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the WICKED from among the JUST.
YehovaYeshua
Matthew 13:47-49
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a NET, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind. Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered THE GOOD into vessels, but cast THE BAD away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the WICKED from among the JUST.
YehovaYeshua
And also in the days of Noah and in the days of lot the good and the bad we're all still together. The ones that were saved and the ones that were destroyed happened ON THE SAME DAY.
Luke 17:26-30
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, UNTIL TJE DAY that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded. But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be IN THE DAY when the Son of man is revealed.
YehovaYeshua
Luke 17:26-30
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, UNTIL TJE DAY that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded. But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be IN THE DAY when the Son of man is revealed.
YehovaYeshua
Josephus was a historion not a person who promoted religious views. Same category as Caesars writings. For example Jesus prophecied the temple complex would be destroyed with not one stone left on another. Josephus wrote about watching this take place. He stated that if hadn't been there to watch I happen with the stones removed in the process he would have never known where it stood. This is evidence that the wall on the Temple Mount was not part of the Temple Complex but part of Fort Antonio housing the 6,000 soldiers and 4,000 assistants consisting of a Roman legion. The ludicrous scale model of the Temple Mount showing the temple taking up the vast majority with Ft. Antonio only taking up a small corner of the mount tries to cram 10,000 into an area that might hold 100 at best.
The location of the temple has been excavated and was as the Torah states on a higher part of the city of David near the temple mount. Even with this many Jews refuse to accept the wall is not part of the temple. Plans are underway to rebuild the temple on that site. It will take a while to get permission and money to do this. This a requirement all proponents of the different views of the tribulation events claim. The three views of the rapture all agree on this plus the wish that the rapture be pre trib not mid or post trib taking Christians out of the tribulation.
The location of the temple has been excavated and was as the Torah states on a higher part of the city of David near the temple mount. Even with this many Jews refuse to accept the wall is not part of the temple. Plans are underway to rebuild the temple on that site. It will take a while to get permission and money to do this. This a requirement all proponents of the different views of the tribulation events claim. The three views of the rapture all agree on this plus the wish that the rapture be pre trib not mid or post trib taking Christians out of the tribulation.
you seem to miss the intent of post #672 ,I'll expand it to clarify it's intent
In Romans 13 and 1Peter the Christians are being told to see Rome(authority over them at that time) as if ordained by God and to pay tithes(money) to them they deserve . In Revelation 13 none can buy or sell unless they receive the mark of the beast,worship the beast ect. In wars 2 the Jews then are pressed into a revolt because they worship God and refuse to let the Romans pollute the temple of God.
(A)So in ad66-70 the Apostles are saying to the then believing Christians to see Rome as over them and to pay tribute(worship the beast and buy and sell with its money?) which cannot be correct right?
(B)The Romans (beast) survive the war/revolt(win the war instead of losing) and were not destroyed at that time(coming?) and continue into history.
(C)The Jews involved in the siege/revolt and refuse to see Rome as God, refuse to let them put images in the Temple and die for it (2Wars book 2,chapter 10,paragraph 4.
So who took the mark of the beat and were destroyed at the brightness of the Lords coming at that time(ad70)?