2 verses that refute all forms of Premillennialism

[delirious]

When was satan bound?

John 12: 31-32, "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself."

Jesus is telling us that Satan was cast out at the cross. He is bound from "deceiving the nations" because the gospel has gone out to the world. I know you think it's a total binding but it's not.

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Please pay special attention to what I bolded in the quote above. According to your literal interpretation only those beheaded will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. That means the Apostle John and Peter and many other apostles and saints will not reign with Him during the 1,000 years. If you try to say, "Well, they will be included too of course," that contradicts your literal hermeneutic. Why? Because the verse also says "the rest of the dead did not live again until the 1,000 years were finished." Those apostles were not beheaded.

You can't have it both ways. The verse refutes any possible literal interpretation. The 1,000 years can only be interpreted symbolically.

Notice also John sees "souls" reigning for 1,000 years. It doesn't say they have bodies and he doesn't say they are reigning on earth with Christ. None of that is in the passage. You read that into the verse from your dispensationalism.

I noticed you ran to verses that you think support your view but you failed to address the 2 verse I gave that refute a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. If you have an answer for them I would sincerely love to hear it.

 

[delirious]

Now, the amillennial view views the 1,000 years as not a literal 1,000 years but an period of time that is not to be taken literally. That view says we are in this symbolic 1,000 years right now. If so, then Satan is bound right now. However, I do not see that as being plausible. Look at all the evil in the world right now.

We can agree to disagree on how Satan is bound right now. I have no problem with that. We would be arguing about a passage that is open to a few different interpretations.

But I did provide clear verses that are not ambiguous like Satan's binding. Do you have an answer for the 2 verses I presented that show a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

We can agree to disagree on how Satan is bound right now. I have no problem with that. We would be arguing about a passage that is open to a few different interpretations.

But I did provide clear verses that are not ambiguous like Satan's binding. Do you have an answer for the 2 verses I presented that show a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible?

Not yet my friend. I lean heavily towards historic premillennialism but it gas holes in it, like all the other views do.

 

[Deade]

Rev 11: 18, "...and the TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, SMALL AND GREAT, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

The dead spoken of in Rev. 11 is not the same dead in Rev. 20. This is a reference to the first batch: Matt. 8:22 "And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”"

Most of the old school Protestant movement churches have taken an Amillennial view about the coming Kingdom of God and still hold to that concept. That teaches us Christ is now ruling the Kingdom from heaven and that Satan is already bound in the bottomless pit. He has only been bound from steering whole nations wrong. The 1000 years of the Kingdom does not really mean 1000 years, but it is now going on and has been since the cross. They also claim the Kingdom will not come visually, and that the two witnesses are figurative of the OT and NT Bibles. This was the general consensus for mainstream Protestantism for centuries. A watering down of the Kingdom message, for sure.

Now we have many different denominations that think differently, but that has only been the case since the mid-1800s. Within the different movements of faith, Christians finding their way back to the truth. Yet we have people tell us God cannot reveal any revelations because everything is already written in the word. Sorry to tell you, we have so many different interpretations of scripture some must be false. That truth we are all looking for is called a revelation from the Holy Spirit. That is our teacher.

Now a couple of verses that lay out just where this reign will be and how long it is.

Rev. 5:10 "and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

Rev. 20:6 "Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with Him for a thousand years."

I rest my case.

 

[PennEd]

John 12: 31-32, "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself."

Jesus is telling us that Satan was cast out at the cross. He is bound from "deceiving the nations" because the gospel has gone out to the world. I know you think it's a total binding but it's not.



Please pay special attention to what I bolded in the quote above. According to your literal interpretation only those beheaded will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. That means the Apostle John and Peter and many other apostles and saints will not reign with Him during the 1,000 years. If you try to say, "Well, they will be included too of course," that contradicts your literal hermeneutic. Why? Because the verse also says "the rest of the dead did not live again until the 1,000 years were finished." Those apostles were not beheaded.

You can't have it both ways. The verse refutes any possible literal interpretation. The 1,000 years can only be interpreted symbolically.

Notice also John sees "souls" reigning for 1,000 years. It doesn't say they have bodies and he doesn't say they are reigning on earth with Christ. None of that is in the passage. You read that into the verse from your dispensationalism.

I noticed you ran to verses that you think support your view but you failed to address the 2 verse I gave that refute a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. If you have an answer for them I would sincerely love to hear it.

Satan will be UNABLE to deceive the nations. He will be in the bottomless pit!

3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.

You've got a huge problem if you think satan isn't alive and active, and deceiving TODAY in the world.


I'm fine with conceding that it will only be the beheaded, and those who survived the Great Tribulation who will reign with Christ. I think it possible others will as well, but NO ONE gives us the authority to allegorize Scripture.


Your verses SUPPORT the millennial reign. The dead are not going to rise until the 1000 yrs are over and we have the final judgement, with the exception of the beheaded in GT.

I notice you did not address Gabriel's promise to Mary that Jesus would reign ON DAVID'S THRONE. David's Throne was on EARTH, NOT in Heaven.

 

[garee]

Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise UNTIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."

Rev 11: 18, "...and the TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, SMALL AND GREAT, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Where do we find the same language of these 2 verses in the Bible?

Rev 20: 11-12, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY and there was found no place for them. And I saw the DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the DEAD were JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. This makes all forms of premillennialism false. It doesn't matter if you are pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, they are all forms of premillennialism and cannot be true according to the above Scriptures.

Premillennialism has people being resurrected while there is still a heavens to populate a supposed 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This directly contradicts Job 14: 12.

Rev 11: 18 is the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists believe this event happens BEFORE the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Not possible according to this verse since it is the "time of the dead that they should be judged" and we see that this happens AFTER the 1,000 years in Rev 20.

That is one reason the Amil (no literal thousand years) position works the best. The thousand years represents an unknow amount of time according to the signified language of the Book of Revelation. It began at the time of reformation (first century) when the veil was rent that time represented by the metaphor thousand years, began . He will come as a thief in the night on the last day to those who make it a literal thousand years.

A study on the word "thousand" as to how it is used through the scripture can give us the spiritual insight that is hid in the parable found in Revelation 20. Remember without parables hiding the unseen understanding Christ spoke not.

 

[garee]

Most of the old school Protestant movement churches have taken an Amillennial view about the coming Kingdom of God and still hold to that concept. That teaches us Christ is now ruling the Kingdom from heaven and that Satan is already bound in the bottomless pit. He has only been bound from steering whole nations wrong. The 1000 years of the Kingdom does not really mean 1000 years, but it is now going on and has been since the cross. They also claim the Kingdom will not come visually, and that the two witnesses are figurative of the OT and NT Bibles. This was the general consensus for mainstream Protestantism for centuries. A watering down of the Kingdom message, for sure

.

It is the gospel "key" that binds the father of lies and loosens a believer from being under his authority as the "Pit Boss". Satan fell from the place he stood in Job with the other angels who also left their first place of habitation .

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.Job1:6

The two witnesses are the law and the prophets. Typified by Moses who represents the law of God according to the letter which kills. and Elijah the Spirit and power of the law as the law of faith, the unseen, which heals .

Satan murderer from the beginning is still doing his work of deceiving the nations bringing lying sighs as wonders which he will be until the last day . But he cannot deceive the elect that know he is bound from not adding any new revelations as lying wonders .

 

[Deade]

.

It is the gospel "key" that binds the father of lies and loosens a believer from being under his authority as the "Pit Boss". Satan fell from the place he stood in Job with the other angels who also left their first place of habitation .

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.Job1:6

The two witnesses are the law and the prophets. Typified by Moses who represents the law of God according to the letter which kills. and Elijah the Spirit and power of the law as the law of faith, the unseen, which heals .

Satan murderer from the beginning is still doing his work of deceiving the nations bringing lying sighs as wonders which he will be until the last day . But he cannot deceive the elect that know he is bound from not adding any new revelations as lying wonders .

Yes, I am fully aware of your invisible kingdom doctrine and I do not agree. You will feel foolish if you are still alive when Jesus visually comes back to take over the world.

Rev. 6:16 "calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,"

 

[garee]

I'm fine with conceding that it will only be the beheaded, and those who survived the Great Tribulation who will reign with Christ. I think it possible others will as well, but NO ONE gives us the authority to allegorize Scripture.

With all do respect. There is no prescription that says look to the literal as that seen and do not look to the spiritual understanding found in parable by using the proper prescriptions for rightly dividing . Remember without parables Christ spoke not... purposely hiding the understanding from those who walk by sight after that literally seen .

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18

The above prescription is key that unlocks the gates of hell and loosens the believer to hear the understanding. The same key binds Satan holding him in the bottomless never ending Pit.

I understand my bias is different when it comes to parables But what is the big fear in looking into the parables comparing the spiritual understanding to the spiritual or faith to faith . It would seem to represent the gospel key..

So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Roman1:15-17

 

[delirious]

The dead spoken of in Rev. 11 is not the same dead in Rev. 20. This is a reference to the first batch: Matt. 8:22 "And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”"

In Matthew 8: 22 Jesus is referring to spiritually dead people which is quite clear from the comparison he uses of physically dead and spiritually dead people. Do you mind explaining to me how this applies to Rev 11: 18? What do you mean by "first batch"?

Rev. 5:10 "and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.

Interesting that you would use this verse. I have a similar one for you. Rev 1: 6, "and has made us a kingdom and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." Same phrasing as your verse. That kingdom is already on earth in the form of the church. What do priests do? They intercede and that's what we do as Christians when we pray for people. Spiritual kingdom not literal one in the middle east.

Rev. 20:6 "Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Interesting again that you would use this verse! You are making my point for me. Notice it says they will be priests of God and reign for a thousand years. That's what we are doing now as Christians. We are interceding for people through prayer during the "1,000 years" which is the church age.

So you see there is more than one way to interpret the 2 verses you provided. What you have failed to do is answer the 2 clear verses I provided that show a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible.

Did you have an answer for Job 14: 12? Do you have an answer for Rev 11: 18? Maybe you provided one for Rev 11: 18 but I don't understand what you are trying to say by "first batch" and what does Matt 8: 22 have to do with it?

 

[cv5]

Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise UNTIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."

Rev 11: 18, "...and the TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, SMALL AND GREAT, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Where do we find the same language of these 2 verses in the Bible?

Rev 20: 11-12, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY and there was found no place for them. And I saw the DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the DEAD were JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. This makes all forms of premillennialism false. It doesn't matter if you are pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, they are all forms of premillennialism and cannot be true according to the above Scriptures.

Premillennialism has people being resurrected while there is still a heavens to populate a supposed 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This directly contradicts Job 14: 12.

Rev 11: 18 is the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists believe this event happens BEFORE the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Not possible according to this verse since it is the "time of the dead that they should be judged" and we see that this happens AFTER the 1,000 years in Rev 20.

Aahhmm…….no.

Job 19

25For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the last he will stand upon the earth.b
26And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,
27whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
My heart faints within me!

 

[cv5]

In Matthew 8: 22 Jesus is referring to spiritually dead people which is quite clear from the comparison he uses of physically dead and spiritually dead people. Do you mind explaining to me how this applies to Rev 11: 18? What do you mean by "first batch"?



Interesting that you would use this verse. I have a similar one for you. Rev 1: 6, "and has made us a kingdom and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." Same phrasing as your verse. That kingdom is already on earth in the form of the church. What do priests do? They intercede and that's what we do as Christians when we pray for people. Spiritual kingdom not literal one in the middle east.



Interesting again that you would use this verse! You are making my point for me. Notice it says they will be priests of God and reign for a thousand years. That's what we are doing now as Christians. We are interceding for people through prayer during the "1,000 years" which is the church age.

So you see there is more than one way to interpret the 2 verses you provided. What you have failed to do is answer the 2 clear verses I provided that show a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible.

Did you have an answer for Job 14: 12? Do you have an answer for Rev 11: 18? Maybe you provided one for Rev 11: 18 but I don't understand what you are trying to say by "first batch" and what does Matt 8: 22 have to do with it?

That's what we are doing now as Christians. We are interceding for people through prayer during the "1,000 years" which is the church age.

I think that you are off by about 1000 years.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

That is one reason the Amil (no literal thousand years) position works the best. The thousand years represents an unknow amount of time according to the signified language of the Book of Revelation. It began at the time of reformation (first century) when the veil was rent that time represented by the metaphor thousand years, began . He will come as a thief in the night on the last day to those who make it a literal thousand years.

A study on the word "thousand" as to how it is used through the scripture can give us the spiritual insight that is hid in the parable found in Revelation 20. Remember without parables hiding the unseen understanding Christ spoke not.

But at the end of the 1,000 years Satan will be loosed for a short time. He is bound now if the 1,000 years is symbolic and not literal, my friend.

 

[cv5]

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.(Rev. 20)

Now, the amillennial view views the 1,000 years as not a literal 1,000 years but an period of time that is not to be taken literally. That view says we are in this symbolic 1,000 years right now. If so, then Satan is bound right now. However, I do not see that as being plausible. Look at all the evil in the world right now.

Also, it says after the 1,000 years, he will be set free for a short time. ~2,000 years hardly constitutes a short time.

If so, then Satan is bound right now. However, I do not see that as being plausible. Look at all the evil in the world right now

If anything God is giving Satan a longer leash (becoming unbound) in this generation, as is evidenced by the overt occultist and demonic themes saturated into the movies, music and media today. And Satan will be fully unleashed in the time of Tribulation, which IMO is very near.

The post-millennialists and amillennialists are wrong. Dead wrong.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

If so, then Satan is bound right now. However, I do not see that as being plausible. Look at all the evil in the world right now

If anything God is giving Satan a longer leash (becoming unbound) in this generation, as is evidenced by the overt occultist and demonic themes saturated into the movies, music and media today. And Satan will be fully unleashed in the time of Tribulation, which IMO is very near.

The post-millennialists and amillennialists are wrong. Dead wrong.

Are you historic or dispensationial pre-mill my friend?

 

[delirious]

Satan will be UNABLE to deceive the nations. He will be in the bottomless pit!

You don't understand what "deceive the nations" means in my opinion. You think it is a total binding that results in complete inactivity. it is not. This is a failure to recognize the symbolic language and nature of the Book of Revelation.

I'm fine with conceding that it will only be the beheaded, and those who survived the Great Tribulation who will reign with Christ. I think it possible others will as well, but NO ONE gives us the authority to allegorize Scripture.

So you are saying that the Apostle John and Peter and all Christians who lived before the last generation who were not beheaded by the beast will not resurrect before the 1,000 years is over. That's what you must say if you are going to be consistent with your literal hermeneutic. I don't think that is a reasonable interpretation.

Your verses SUPPORT the millennial reign. The dead are not going to rise until the 1000 yrs are over and we have the final judgement, with the exception of the beheaded in GT.

I think you are losing track of your premillennial timeline. Rev 11: 18 happens during the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists agree that this happens before the return of Christ. He has to return in order to rule from Jerusalem, right?

But Rev 11: 18 tells us the dead are being raised and judged during the seventh trumpet. Rev 20: 11 tells us when that happens. It is after the 1,000 years. Therefore there is no space for a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth from Jerusalem. It simply is not possible and refuted by the Scripture.

I notice you did not address Gabriel's promise to Mary that Jesus would reign ON DAVID'S THRONE. David's Throne was on EARTH, NOT in Heaven.

David's throne simply means that Christ will rule over true Israel which is the church. It is not a literal throne in Jerusalem.

I know that you reject my interpretations and that is fine but let me ask you the same question I asked you in the beginning.

How do you answer the 2 verses I presented in my original post that refute any possibility of a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth?

I noticed you have avoided that.

 

[delirious]

Aahhmm…….no.

Job 19

25For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the last he will stand upon the earth.b
26And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,
27whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
My heart faints within me!

How does this refute Job 14: 12 and Rev 11: 18 that I presented?

 

[delirious]

The post-millennialists and amillennialists are wrong. Dead wrong.

Can you answer the 2 verses I presented that prove that a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible. Emotional arguments don't mean anything.

 

[PennEd]

You don't understand what "deceive the nations" means in my opinion. You think it is a total binding that results in complete inactivity. it is not. This is a failure to recognize the symbolic language and nature of the Book of Revelation.



So you are saying that the Apostle John and Peter and all Christians who lived before the last generation who were not beheaded by the beast will not resurrect before the 1,000 years is over. That's what you must say if you are going to be consistent with your literal hermeneutic. I don't think that is a reasonable interpretation.



I think you are losing track of your premillennial timeline. Rev 11: 18 happens during the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists agree that this happens before the return of Christ. He has to return in order to rule from Jerusalem, right?

But Rev 11: 18 tells us the dead are being raised and judged during the seventh trumpet. Rev 20: 11 tells us when that happens. It is after the 1,000 years. Therefore there is no space for a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth from Jerusalem. It simply is not possible and refuted by the Scripture.



David's throne simply means that Christ will rule over true Israel which is the church. It is not a literal throne in Jerusalem.

I know that you reject my interpretations and that is fine but let me ask you the same question I asked you in the beginning.

How do you answer the 2 verses I presented in my original post that refute any possibility of a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth?

I noticed you have avoided that.

Who gave you authority to allegorize Scripture with your private interpretations? Who told you David's Throne was an allegory?

I submit you DO NOT have that authority.

I have already said your passages SUPPORT Christ's Reign on Earth.

 

[garee]

Yes, I am fully aware of your invisible kingdom doctrine and I do not agree. You will feel foolish if you are still alive when Jesus visually comes back to take over the world.

Rev. 6:16 "calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,"

Its why I believe it is called "walking by faith" the unseen eternal (Not by sight after what the eyes see ) and why we look not at the temporal as if the kingdom of God was of this world or will ever be. (never was) It does not come by observation now or will it on the last day .

Like in the times of Noah he who dwells in us by faith will finish the work coming like a thief in the night . And not the Son of man the temporal as that seen coming for another outward demonstration of the lamb of God who was slain from before the foundation of the world.

One demonstration is all that was promised. We walk by faith the unseen eternal.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2 Corinthians 5;16 .

Many are looking for a fleshly Jesus hoping the kingdom of God will come by sight..

God is not a man as us and neither is their a fleshly infallible mediator that stands between God not seen and man seen. The prescription below for rightly dividing has not changed even for day one, the last

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eterna.l2 Corinthians 4:18