2 verses that refute all forms of Premillennialism

[delirious]

Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise UNTIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."

Rev 11: 18, "...and the TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, SMALL AND GREAT, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Where do we find the same language of these 2 verses in the Bible?

Rev 20: 11-12, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY and there was found no place for them. And I saw the DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the DEAD were JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. This makes all forms of premillennialism false. It doesn't matter if you are pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, they are all forms of premillennialism and cannot be true according to the above Scriptures.

Premillennialism has people being resurrected while there is still a heavens to populate a supposed 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This directly contradicts Job 14: 12.

Rev 11: 18 is the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists believe this event happens BEFORE the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Not possible according to this verse since it is the "time of the dead that they should be judged" and we see that this happens AFTER the 1,000 years in Rev 20.

 

[p_rehbein]

Well, now, not saying I agree or disagree, just pointing out that there is at least ONE Member here who may decide to COUNT the number of Scriptures that support Premillennialism and then determine which is Biblical.......

No, I have not the foggiest how many there are, but I betcha by golly wow those that disagree with you will!

 

[OneFaith]

Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise UNTIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."

Rev 11: 18, "...and the TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, SMALL AND GREAT, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Where do we find the same language of these 2 verses in the Bible?

Rev 20: 11-12, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY and there was found no place for them. And I saw the DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the DEAD were JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. This makes all forms of premillennialism false. It doesn't matter if you are pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, they are all forms of premillennialism and cannot be true according to the above Scriptures.

Premillennialism has people being resurrected while there is still a heavens to populate a supposed 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This directly contradicts Job 14: 12.

Rev 11: 18 is the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists believe this event happens BEFORE the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Not possible according to this verse since it is the "time of the dead that they should be judged" and we see that this happens AFTER the 1,000 years in Rev 20.

I was all excited and agreeing with you until Christ reigning on the earth. It seems you are thinking that's going to happen physically. When Christ returns He is not going to step foot back on this earth, but rather we will rise to meet Him in the air. Christ is reigning right now. His kingdom of heaven (us) are reigning with Him as we speak. The church is the kingdom of heaven on earth.

"He is the firstborn from among the dead (never to die again) so that in everything He will have the supremacy (King, top person, boss, highest in rank). Christ is King and rules His church from heaven, by the Word.

 

[pottersclay]

who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

“Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

Onefaith I'm going to start out slow here....😊😊😊

 

[preacher4truth]

Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise UNTIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."

I'm not defending premil here, but would suggest you're misinterpreting and misapplying the above text in your quest to refute this teaching.

It appears contextually that this is saying that man can raise himself back up as soon as the heavens are no more. Kind of like "when hell freezes over."

A little more context:

Job 14:7 “For there is hope for a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease.
Job 14:8 Though its root grow old in the earth, and its stump die in the soil,
Job 14:9 yet at the scent of water it will bud and put out branches like a young plant.

Job 14:10 But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up,
Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

 

[delirious]

I was all excited and agreeing with you until Christ reigning on the earth. It seems you are thinking that's going to happen physically. When Christ returns He is not going to step foot back on this earth, but rather we will rise to meet Him in the air. Christ is reigning right now. His kingdom of heaven (us) are reigning with Him as we speak. The church is the kingdom of heaven on earth.

I'm not sure why you think I believe in a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. I don't think Christ is ever going to do that. That's what Premillennialism believes which is what I was refuting in my post.

I agree with you that He reigns from Heaven right now.

 

[delirious]

who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

I agree with you that He shall return the same way.

He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’

Something Christ does from Heaven right now. That is a quote from Rev 2: 27, Psalm 2 and Rev 19: 15.

In Rev 2: 26-27 Christ says to those that overcome, "I will give power over the nations -- 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels' -- as I also have received from My Father." It's in the past tense meaning it is something Christ was already doing from Heaven when Revelation was written.

 

[delirious]

I'm not defending premil here, but would suggest you're misinterpreting and misapplying the above text in your quest to refute this teaching.
It appears contextually that this is saying that man can raise himself back up as soon as the heavens are no more. Kind of like "when hell freezes over."

How is the verse saying that "man can raise himself back up"? With all due respect, the idea is ridiculous and how you got that out of reading the verses is beyond me.

The context in Job 14: 7-9 is stating that a tree can be cut down but can bloom again with the right conditions. A second life.

The context in Job 14: 10-12 is making an obvious contrast that man does not get a second chance like the tree. He lives once.

Verse 12 makes it clear that He does not rise again until after the "heavens are no more" which takes place at the Great White Throne judgment where we see in Rev 20: 11-12, the "heavens fleeing away" and the dead being judged.

Rev 20: 11-12 fit perfectly with what Job 14: 12 says and refutes premillennialism.

 

[preacher4truth]

How is the verse saying that "man can raise himself back up"? With all due respect, the idea is ridiculous and how you got that out of reading the verses is beyond me.

Likewise.

Your misusage is absurd and driven by a quest to disprove dispies.

Try the following:

1) Context; 2) Thinking; 3) Living outside your proof-text driven OCD agenda to disprove dispies.

Who have you consulted concerning the interpretation besides you and "God?" You might be surprised and actually learn something, albeit you're not open for any type of correction whatsoever.

Carry on...

 

[OneFaith]

I'm not sure why you think I believe in a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. I don't think Christ is ever going to do that. That's what Premillennialism believes which is what I was refuting in my post.

I agree with you that He reigns from Heaven right now.

OK.

 

[PennEd]

Well, since no one wants to knock the chip off the Amill's shoulder, I'll gladly do it!


Amillennialism is an anti-semetic, satanic, erroneous doctrine.

I present ALL 31,102 verses of Scripture as evidence Christ WILL reign on Earth while satan is bound.


Did heads explode yet?

 

[delirious]

Your misusage is absurd and driven by a quest to disprove dispies.

Where was the misusage?

Try the following:

1) Context; 2) Thinking; 3) Living outside your proof-text driven OCD agenda to disprove dispies.

I exegeted the context in my last post which obviously required thinking. So that takes care of 1&2 above. As for 3, it's not a proof-text since the context bears out the meaning I gave earlier. A proof-text is when you take something OUT of context and it gives a different meaning then what it says in its context. That's not the case with this verse since quoting it in isolation does not change its meaning in this particular example.

Who have you consulted concerning the interpretation besides you and "God?" You might be surprised and actually learn something, albeit you're not open for any type of correction whatsoever.

I have no problem with being corrected by people but emotional arguments count for nothing. You used no Scripture. You came up with a ridiculous idea about "man raising himself back up" which the text doesn't support at all. Can you tell me how it supports it?

I remember you from my first thread I ever posted on here which I think was about a couple months ago.. You tried to hijack the thread to Calvinism, and after I asked you not to, you continued to the point where I had to ignore you.

If you want to be contentious please do it somewhere else.

 

[OneFaith]

Well, since no one wants to knock the chip off the Amill's shoulder, I'll gladly do it!


Amillennialism is an anti-semetic, satanic, erroneous doctrine.

I present ALL 31,102 verses of Scripture as evidence Christ WILL reign on Earth while satan is bound.


Did heads explode yet?

My head does not explode with hearing false teaching. Christ will not physically reign on the earth for a physical 1,000 years.

 

[delirious]

Well, since no one wants to knock the chip off the Amill's shoulder, I'll gladly do it!

I look forward to a brotherly challenge that is done with an irenic spirit.

Amillennialism is an anti-semetic, satanic, erroneous doctrine.

Emotional argument and simply not valid. Also not true.

I present ALL 31,102 verses of Scripture as evidence Christ WILL reign on Earth while satan is bound.

Do you have a Scriptural defense for the 2 that I presented that show that a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible?

 

[Hevosmies]

I've said it before: Job 14:12 in your interpretation does not fly because:

Jesus was resurrected AFTER Job was written. As were the many in Matthew 27.

NEXT

 

[OneFaith]

The first resurrection for us is baptism- we join Christ in His death and are raised to newness of life (Romans 6).

 

[PennEd]

Luke 1:29 But [f]when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

When did Jesus sit on King David's Throne?

Satan Bound 1,000 Years
Revelation 20: Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

When was satan bound?

Revelation 20:
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

This passage SPECIFICALLY says the beheaded Saints from the Great Tribulation will reign with Christ for a thousand yrs. Should be the end of the discussion.

 

[Hevosmies]

The first resurrection for us is baptism- we join Christ in His death and are raised to newness of life (Romans 6).

After you got baptized you started ruling and reigning [Revelation 20 says thats what happens at the first resurrection]? Where are you ruling at?

This is a hard-sell for anyone who believes the word "reign" means to reign over other people. Basically, if you believe words have meaning, its a tough sell.

And btw: Since you guys are ruling and reigning right now, I have a couple of complaints hey. You seem to be incompetent, I was reading the newspaper today and it didn't seem like you guys were doing that good of a job?

Its hard to remain serious when someone claims to be reigning right now, and all you have to do is look outside the window to refute the idea. O well

 

[delirious]

I've said it before: Job 14:12 in your interpretation does not fly because:
Jesus was resurrected AFTER Job was written. As were the many in Matthew 27.

So what you are saying is the Bible is lying and contradicting itself. That's the assertion you are making although you probably don't realize it.

If your interpretation is correct then Jesus' resurrection, along with the saints that were raised at His death on the cross, disproves Job 14: 12. We can just throw our Bibles away since it is now proven untrustworthy. Obviously, there is a problem with your interpretation.

When it uses the word "man" in Job 14: 12 it is talking about mankind in general. This should be clear to anyone reading the text. Jesus and some saints being raised at His death are an obvious exception and don't apply to this verse in Job.

Let me give you another example of "man" being used for mankind in general in the Scripture. Hebrews 9: 27, "It is given to man once to die and then the judgment."

We know that their is a whole generation of Christians who will not die according to 1 Thess 4: 13-17 when Christ returns. So is Hebrews 9: 27 not true now too?

Your interpretation simply doesn't work. You also didn't address Rev 11: 18 either which is another verse that disproves premillennialism.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.(Rev. 20)

Now, the amillennial view views the 1,000 years as not a literal 1,000 years but an period of time that is not to be taken literally. That view says we are in this symbolic 1,000 years right now. If so, then Satan is bound right now. However, I do not see that as being plausible. Look at all the evil in the world right now.

Also, it says after the 1,000 years, he will be set free for a short time. ~2,000 years hardly constitutes a short time.