Being on the housetop
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Question concerning the parts in bold . If I follow you correctly you point to Noah and Lot as being taken out or raptured from the dire consequences of the flood and the destruction of Sodom . Is that correct? If so What about the second part of what I placed in bold ? Nearly the entire Christian community of Jerusalem fled the destruction before it happened. According to early church historians Eusebius and Epiphanius . Their are others but these two are the ones that came to mind .
The historians also make it a point to stress the warnings of Jesus found in the scriptures as to why the Christian Church ran to the hills
Blessings
Bill
Again you did not address who is taken and the other left in Luke 17 which you claim happened in the first century.
Nearly all the Christian body had several decades earlier been exiled out of Jerusalem (Acts 8:1).
Who were left were the faithless, upon whom the wrath of God fell upon to the uttermost through the Romans (1 Thessalonians 2:16).
The Lord was not providing warning to the murdering faithless in Jerusalem in 66-70 AD.
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
Liked I said there is no "rapture" in Luke 17.
What Jesus is referring to is that the healthy and young would be taken by the invading army (as slaves and servants) and the old and infirm would be left to fend for themselves. He's using an example that was a well known occurence.
So in either case it is not good news.
Now you have addressed it, but I wonder how many others believe those taken and left in Luke 17 believe what you claim?
I'll guarantee that no dispensationalists will agree because this "one taken" "one left" is a part of their "rapture" claim together with Thessalonians harpazo which has nothing in common with "taken".
Yea I agree that most were gone . Still the apostles remained. They (and you could reason ) a few others that served to the apostles needs. Also the apostles were precisely to people that heard the very words from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ’s lips . Yes the warning may not have been for the unbelievers,but many of those that were charged with shepherding the Church would recall those words that Jesus spoke . We’re still in Jerusalem.
Blessings
Bill
Go visit some Middle Eastern and third world countries. The rooftop is valuable living space, and has other uses also.
Actually, Acts 8:1 says all but the apostles were scattered. No few others to serve the needs of the Apostles.
Now you have to ask yourself: Were the apostles still in Jerusalem nearly four decades later, after Christ's crucifixion?
Let's say hypothetically a couple of disciples were in Jerusalem; did the Lord then have to warn His apostles verbally beforehand, and not through the Holy Spirit when it was time to leave Jerusalem?
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Louis, a study of Hebrew history will reveal the truth that the average Hebrew house included 2 levels....the animals would stay below and the people would live, sleep, eat etc. in the upper CHAMBER which included OFTEN spending time on the roof.......
This is from George Lamsa's book "Idioms in the Bible Explained":
Two women— a young girl and an old woman, sit down to grind wheat together, the young girl helps with one hand to turn the grinder and with the other she feeds the grinder. In the field two men work together— a boy and an old man.
During the persecutions and wars when a town is conquered by the enemy the young girl at the house and the boy in the field are taken captive, but the old woman and old man are left.
Lamsa, George M.. Idioms in the Bible Explained and a Key to the Original Gospels (p. 101). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Nebuchadnezzar is an example of what happens with an invading army:
2 Kings 24:14 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land.
Note not four decades 33 years the Jewish Roman war starts in 66 AD and ends 4 years later. The Church flees at the start of the war .
Ok Saul before he left for Damascus was persecuting who and who was being healed for their faith in Jerusalem all that was taking place after the persecution in Jerusalem. Also how can the Church have a persecution with so few to persecute? Also later in acts Paul returns to Jerusalem to find all the disciples were afraid of him. It’s not the apostles scripture differentiates the two.
Acts 9 26 When he came to Jerusalem, he was trying to associate with the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took hold of him and brought him to the apostles and described to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had talked to him, and how at Damascus he had spoken out boldly in the name of Jesus. 28 And he was with them, moving about freely in Jerusalem, speaking out boldly in the name of the Lord.
Ok was no one Paul talked too was evangelized and saved ? Also note Paul returns again to Jerusalem several times 4 total. One time we see Paul bringing contributions for more than just the apostles as seen in
Romans 15 : 25 but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.
Their was not a hypothetical congregation there it’s real .
Blessings
Bill
dcontroversal, Even if everyone in Jerusalem were on their housetop and they all had an unobstructed view of the temple, they would had to have had eagle eye vision to see something standing there that should not have been standing there.
And what about those in the field outside of Jerusalem, how could they have possibly seen something standing in the temple that shouldn't be there, unless they had binoculars or a telescope?
"To see something standing where it ought not stand" is to be aware and recognize that something is wrong within oneself.
I can agree that after the initial exile of ALL Christians except for the Apostles in Acts 8:1 shortly after the Lords crucifixion in 33 AD, that the apostles then converted other Jews in Jerusalem to the Lords Way.
I also believe Paul over a course of 15 years assisted Peter and other apostles in Jerusalem to convert Jews towards the Lords Way in loving their neighbor.
So now we are circa 50 AD (33 AD + 15= 48 AD), and from here we see that at some point that the hierarchy traditional Jews in Jerusalem makes the rule that the apostles can no longer preach Christ's Way (1 Thessalonians 2:16).
If the Apostles do preach the Word, they will then likely be killed, as they had also intended to do with Paul.
After an additional circa 15 years of time given to repent, the Lord then decides to leave the traditionalists to their sins and pours out His wrath on the inhabitants of Jerusalem to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:16).
So now the question becomes: After the rule was made that the apostles could no longer preach Christ (circa 50 AD), or they would likely have been executed, just as they had intended to do to Paul; would there then have been any reason for the apostles to remain in Jerusalem for circa 15 years?
1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
In many places in Africa its also used, and south America, as a place to dry your laundry for example
Your argument is not with me pal.....and the phrase, "WHEN YOU SEE...." does not necessarily imply them laying actual eyes on something the very second it happens.....for example....Hurricane Katrina laid waste to the gulf coast, I was not there to see it, but I seen it in the aftermath when they plastered videos, pics etc. all over the news....use some common sense Louis!
You do have some "weird" interpretations of scripture Louie - there was no rule made "that the apostles could no longer preach Christ" - the opposition by the unbelieving Jews was from the very beginning:
Acts 4:17 “But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.”
1 Thess 2:16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
Back when this was written it was common to have a flat rooftop with walls- kinda like we have porches and balconies.