Perspective On The Law/Grace

[Epiales]

Greetings all in Yeshua,

I don't make many threads on here but I was in chat earlier and someone came in and basically rebuked anyone for keeping the Sabbath; saying it was the law and if you keep the Sabbath, u're no longer under grace. That our Sabbath is now in Jesus Christ, and it is now every day (which I agree).

Have we really stooped this low as a "Christian" society though, that we would tell someone that they are basically 'heathen' if they want to do something that was perfect and holy in the Old Testament?

Psa 19:7 The law (Torah) of the LORD is perfect.....

Yes, there will be many that come in this thread and say that the law made nothing perfect, or the law only pointed to sin, or that the law was a foreshadowing of grace, but why would we rebuke a child of the King for following the Sabbath, or wanting to keep any other law at that? I'm not here to discuss every law in the Word of God, but to mainly focus on the Sabbath day. Put whatever law you want and think on it in this same manner if you wish, but the Sabbath haters really grieve my spirit, and I believe that it grieves God too.

If a believer in Yeshua wishes to keep a Sabbath day, or follow a festival, then what is that to anyone else? Does this mean that God is going to love them more if they do? I think not! I think God loves us equally as fellow partakers of Christ and as Kings and Priests unto Him. But I do think that we can love God more ourselves, and I think if you are a child of the King, then if you wish to keep a Sabbath day, or a law for HIM, out of love and reverence, then God respects this, as you are showing your love towards Him. I know people that keep the Sabbath and the festivals, but they also know that it's not about God loving them more, or by which means they enter into heaven. They know they are saved through faith in Him and Him alone.

Tell me what is wrong with this? Tell me why many Christians completely and vehemently hate and rebuke this? What is wrong if someone loves God enough to sacrifice a day for Him? Not because they are forced to, or because God says, 'thou shalt'! Why can't we see that some people do it out of reverence to HIM? It is not about having to, but wanting to.

Why do we read our Bibles?
Why do we pray for others?
Why do we feed the hungry?
Why do we share the Gospel?
Why do we help our neighbors?
Why do we visit the prisoners?
Why do we give to the Church?

Why does one follow the Sabbath?

The answer is LOVE! We do these things because we LOVE HIM! Any Christian that I know will say that they do these things because they don't have to, but because they want to. They will say that works don't save you, but after you get saved, you do good words because you WANT to, because of what He did for you. Not that you are trying to please God somehow by making yourself perfect in and of yourselves.

If you Sabbath haters wish to judge and rebuke those that keep it out of LOVE, then stop reading. Stop studying. Stop praying. Stop feeding the hungry. Stop going to Church. Stop sharing the Gospel. After all, you don't want to be considered a heathen because you are doing something out of love for God... now do you?

People spend all week working, taking care of spouses and children. They deal with unexpected things in their lives, as well as taking kids to school events, etc... So they decide to take a day and set it apart for God. This is really a bad thing? Really? I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's just retarded thinking. I think it pleases God the Father when people will sacrifice a day to devote to Him, even though we live every day for Him. Face it, not ONE person in this chat forum truly devotes EVERY DAY PERFECTLY to the Lord. I hear all the time, "Every day is our Sabbath rest", but if I were a fly on the wall, I bet every day wouldn't be a Sabbath unto the Lord. Does one buy a gift on Fathers day for their father because they HAVE TO, or because they love him? Do you think your father is pleased if you do? BAM!!! Does he love you any more or any less because you did? BAM!!!

To rebuke or even hinder someone from keeping the Sabbath, or whatever law they choose to follow, in my opinion, is a disgrace to the name "Christian". If one wishes to abstain from pork, follow the Sabbath or another festival, then YAY for them and BOO for you for trying to tell them they are wrong.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

I don't personally have or keep a Sabbath day either, and I LOVE pork, so I'm not trying to be biased. I don't think God would love me more or less if I kept it or not. But I do think that by me doing so, would show my love for Yeshua, just as feeding the hungry would, or clothing the naked, or praying for my brothers and sisters. It makes nobody any better or any less if they do these things or not, but I do think it shows God how much we love Him. And yes, some people love God more than others. I can tell by their actions and deeds, and He knows as well.

I don't see anyone that I know that keep any laws, Sabbath, or any other, going around saying they are better than me because they do them and I don't. Do some do this? More than likely, but they are just deceived and arrogant and need someone to teach them to be humble.

There are two extremes I see in the forum and in chat.

1. If you don't follow the law, then something is wrong with you.
2. If you do follow the law, then something is wrong with you.

Why can't it be based on an individuals love towards Yeshua and not about a man made law that there is no law?

I would suggest minding our own business and let people serve the Lord the way they want to serve Him. To love the Lord the way they want to love Him. To revere the Lord the way they want to revere the Lord. I truly think God frowns upon those that belittle someone else just because they choose to follow a law out of LOVE and RESPECT.

2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

I myself would place keeping the Sabbath day in there as a good work; not based on a law that says one MUST, but a law of love written on our hearts that says, "I want to".

 

[CharliRenee]

BAMIDY BAM BAM!!! In my humble opinion, this hits it straight out of the park. Of course that is because I agree with you 100%, lol. I admire ones desire to please and love the Lord. I also believe that when we are doing it from "I want to" rather than "I have to" it should alleviate any debate or issue one might have with regards to ones choice. Who are any of us to come against a sincere heart who seeks to worship God, simply for the reason of love and devotion, not of salvation? What a noble and selfless ambition!!!

 

[Locutus]

How are they keeping the sabbath? As the Israelites did or some Christianised version?

 

[Nehemiah6]

If a believer in Yeshua wishes to keep a Sabbath day, or follow a festival, then what is that to anyone else?

Fair enough, since that is exactly what the Bible says. As far as the observance of days is concerned, there is Christian liberty.

By the same token Sabbatarians should refrain from insisting that Christians who fail to observe the sixth day sabbath are wrong. The Lord's Day is even more significant than the sabbath, since it is after all "the Lord's Day".

 

[Epiales]

Fair enough, since that is exactly what the Bible says. As far as the observance of days is concerned, there is Christian liberty.

By the same token Sabbatarians should refrain from insisting that Christians who fail to observe the sixth day sabbath are wrong. The Lord's Day is even more significant than the sabbath, since it is after all "the Lord's Day".

I agree, and would say the same thing to anyone that kept it and then looked down upon someone that did not keep it.

 

[Epiales]

How are they keeping the sabbath? As the Israelites did or some Christianised version?

I personally don't care and don't think God does! If you wish to set aside a day solely for Him, then why is that bad? Why does it have to be Israelite or "Christianized"? I personally translate the Sabbath as a day unto the Lord, and have no idea why anyone would be against this. Sure, one can debate:

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

But I think if you want to rest that day and devote it to the Lord, refreshing yourself in Word, prayer, fasting, praise, worship, or whatever.. Do it unto the Lord!

 

[maxwel]

I would suggest minding our own business and let people serve the Lord the way they want to serve Him.

I would just add there might be a difference between how you inject your views when someone is quietly minding their own business,
and how you inject your views when someone is actively engaging in a debate of their views.

...

 

[Epiales]

I would just add there might be a difference between how you inject your views when someone is quietly minding their own business,
and how you inject your views when someone is actively engaging in a debate of their views.

...

Problem is...

There should be no debate on whether it's right or wrong to follow the Sabbath day unless it is evident one follows in order to be saved or b/c they think they MUST follow it, or if someone thinks it's wrong to follow it b/c we are now under grace. It's not up for debate otherwise.

 

[TastyWallet]

Excellent post! Unfortunately yes, there are many who will condemn you to hell for following the Sabbath (or not following it). All we can do is try to lovingly reason with them, show them the Scriptures, and pray that they change their mind.

 

[maxwel]

Problem is...

There should be no debate on whether it's right or wrong to follow the Sabbath day unless it is evident one follows in order to be saved or b/c they think they MUST follow it, or if someone thinks it's wrong to follow it b/c we are now under grace. It's not up for debate otherwise.

There can be plenty of debate if people are INTENDING to engage in debate.

It is perfectly fine, and helpful, to discuss non-critical doctrines when we are IN a conversation to INTENTIONALLY discuss non-critical doctrine. That's how we learn.

There is a time and place for things.

I don't walk up to all my friends, and just start arguments about eschatology.
But if they want to talk about it, and it's controversial, then we can have that controversial talk.

There is a time and place for things.



BTW, my first post was not intended to contradict you; I wasn't picking a bone with you.
I was just adding some commentary... like additional things to consider.

...

 

[Epiales]

There can be plenty of debate if people are INTENDING to engage in debate.

It is perfectly fine, and helpful, to discuss non-critical doctrines when we are IN a conversation to INTENTIONALLY discuss non-critical doctrine. That's how we learn.

There is a time and place for things.

I don't walk up to all my friends, and just start arguments about eschatology.
But if they want to talk about it, and it's controversial, then we can have that controversial talk.

There is a time and place for things.



BTW, my first post was not intended to contradict you; I wasn't picking a bone with you.
I was just adding some commentary... like additional things to consider.

...

You're fine! I just see so many that want to debate or belittle someone for following it when it has nothing to do with their salvation or anything else. I just find it ludicrous for people to degrade someone or tell them they are under false doctrine/teaching and not under grace, just b/c they WANT to follow a law out of LOVE. And they will want to point out how wrong they are. To me, that's not debate, but judgment and hypocrisy.

Sure, if someone asks someone's opinion, then to me, it's open for debate. But to attack someone character or faith because they follow the Sabbath is the original idea of why I posted this thread.

 

[maxwel]

You're fine! I just see so many that want to debate or belittle someone for following it when it has nothing to do with their salvation or anything else. I just find it ludicrous for people to degrade someone or tell them they are under false doctrine/teaching and not under grace, just b/c they WANT to follow a law out of LOVE. And they will want to point out how wrong they are. To me, that's not debate, but judgment and hypocrisy.

Sure, if someone asks someone's opinion, then to me, it's open for debate. But to attack someone character or faith because they follow the Sabbath is the original idea of why I posted this thread.

That all sounds reasonable to me.

But when people DO bring those things up for debate in a debate forum... then it is appropriate to have the debate.
But it should still be done politely.

Sometimes those little non-critical doctrines really are important, because sometimes they're a "symptom" of an entire foundation of bad theology. So sometimes those non-critical things really are important, but they're important for polite teaching and discussion, not for fighting.

..

 

[Locutus]

What I find interesting is that for years of reading the bible I never once considered "keeping the sabbath" - it was only brought to my attention by those that were doing so - and generally there was a lot more than just saturday worship thinking going off in the "background".

 

[Deade]

Problem is...

There should be no debate on whether it's right or wrong to follow the Sabbath day unless it is evident one follows in order to be saved or b/c they think they MUST follow it, or if someone thinks it's wrong to follow it b/c we are now under grace. It's not up for debate otherwise.

I personally keep a seventh day Sabbath. Not in order to be saved, I consider myself under grace like everyone else. You have a most excellent view on how we much each interpret God's word and worship on how we think God would want.

It isn't my job to condemn anyone else for the way they honor God. I only have to answer for myself. As far as how we keep the Sabbath, that is not anyone's business but ours. People call me legalist because I worship differently and they think I am judging them by inference. It may well be and if I have done any of it wrongly, I will have to answer for it. I won't judge anyone else because there will be an accounting for that.

 

[Epiales]

What I find interesting is that for years of reading the bible I never once considered "keeping the sabbath" - it was only brought to my attention by those that were doing so - and generally there was a lot more than just saturday worship thinking going off in the "background".

Yeah, well I deal with this mentality on a daily basis in the chat. People that everyone knows that keeps the sabbath and festivals, knowing it's not meant for favor or salvation, as they are under grace, but because they WANT to b/c the LOVE God.

If we talk with someone and find out there are other things going off in the 'background', then I think we need to steer them in the correct direction, according to scripture.

Maybe instead of someone just blatantly telling a person they just met that it's wrong to keep the Sabbath, maybe we should ask "why" they are keeping it and find more out before we condemn them for doing so. Even in the forums here! Some do keep it b/c they feel it's a requirement for their salvation or something else... but many keep it because they Love God and want to serve/worship Him in that area of their lives.

 

[Epiales]

I personally keep a seventh day Sabbath. Not in order to be saved, I consider myself under grace like everyone else. You have a most excellent view on how we much each interpret God's word and worship on how we think God would want.

It isn't my job to condemn anyone else for the way they honor God. I only have to answer for myself. As far as how we keep the Sabbath, that is not anyone's business but ours. People call me legalist because I worship differently and they think I am judging them by inference. It may well be and if I have done any of it wrongly, I will have to answer for it. I won't judge anyone else because there will be an accounting for that.

And that's my point exactly! It's almost an automatic judgment against anyone that does.

 

[Embankment]

Fallowing the Sabbath is fine and dandy, I does not make you a bad person. It just has no basis in scripture.

 

[Epiales]

Fallowing the Sabbath is fine and dandy, I does not make you a bad person. It just has no basis in scripture.

It has a basis for anyone that desires to show God respect and love in choosing to do so, and THAT is in scripture itself.

 

[Deade]

It has a basis for anyone that desires to show God respect and love in choosing to do so, and THAT is in scripture itself.

It is just like I will not wear blue jeans and tennis shoes into a church sanctuary because I feel I would be disrespectful to God. I do not judge others for doing so. I grew up at a time when the culture dictated things that some find antiquated (I am 72). I worked in the mission field for over seven years and you can't be judgmental with people and be effective. If they show up for church in rags, just be glad they are there.

 

[Locutus]

People call me legalist

I just think of you as a Deadelist.