Speaking in tongues
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Caught up does not mean indwell. The way you arrive at your unusual theory is by redefining words, it seems. Paul was looking forward to a real resurrection of the dead, which Daniel described as the saints which slept in the dust arising. He was looking for the dead in Christ and the living saints being caught up to meet Christ in the air.
The passage does not say the new tongues will cast out demons. We see an example of casting out demons in Jesus' name when Paul said, "In the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to come out of her."
If you are going to use allegorical interpretation, keep in mind that the ancient authors who suggested such an approach also believed in the literal level of interpretation as well. If you take the Bible as only allegory, how would you be saved? Do you believe Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead, or is the resurrection purely an allegory.
And it only makes sense to accept some of the allegorical interpretations if you treat them as extra-biblical prophecies and judge them as prophecies, because there is no reason to believe them unless you believe the interpreter is receiving some kind of revelation.
If we believe the Bible, then we will believe what it says about the gift of prophecy. The Bible does not say 'believe not prophecy.' It says 'Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.'
If you are going to use allegorical interpretation, keep in mind that the ancient authors who suggested such an approach also believed in the literal level of interpretation as well. If you take the Bible as only allegory, how would you be saved? Do you believe Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead, or is the resurrection purely an allegory.
And it only makes sense to accept some of the allegorical interpretations if you treat them as extra-biblical prophecies and judge them as prophecies, because there is no reason to believe them unless you believe the interpreter is receiving some kind of revelation.
If we believe the Bible, then we will believe what it says about the gift of prophecy. The Bible does not say 'believe not prophecy.' It says 'Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.'
Aaah that's the common doctrine it is almost turning into a meme nowadays, turns out common doesn't necessarily mean true.
1. Paul was looking forward for the day of the Lord which he made clear that it won't delay:
Heb 10:36 You need to persevere, so that after you have done God’s will, you will receive what He has promised. 37For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.
It is clear Paul was not looking forward to 21st century but 1st century, we also know the Lord cometh with ten thousand of his saints so the living believers were to make room for them.
2. From Paul's own teaching, one can deduce that the dead being caught up with the living actually means the dead rise to indwell the living. And Paul himself at one point counted himself amongst the dead that will rise and be caught up with his listeners in Corinth and at some point counted himself amongst the living who the dead will rise and be caught up with. If Paul was talking about the 21st century resurrection he would only count himself amongst the dead who will rise and be caught up those that will be living in that period.
3. Daniel was talking about a general period of time called the end times which started in the 1st century and still continuing. So Daniel never talked about a specific time.
4. Isaiah prophesied about the dead rising and going in rooms to be protected from the wrath of God on the earth.
Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
Which rooms do you think these are?
1. Paul was looking forward for the day of the Lord which he made clear that it won't delay:
Heb 10:36 You need to persevere, so that after you have done God’s will, you will receive what He has promised. 37For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.
It is clear Paul was not looking forward to 21st century but 1st century, we also know the Lord cometh with ten thousand of his saints so the living believers were to make room for them.
2. From Paul's own teaching, one can deduce that the dead being caught up with the living actually means the dead rise to indwell the living. And Paul himself at one point counted himself amongst the dead that will rise and be caught up with his listeners in Corinth and at some point counted himself amongst the living who the dead will rise and be caught up with. If Paul was talking about the 21st century resurrection he would only count himself amongst the dead who will rise and be caught up those that will be living in that period.
3. Daniel was talking about a general period of time called the end times which started in the 1st century and still continuing. So Daniel never talked about a specific time.
4. Isaiah prophesied about the dead rising and going in rooms to be protected from the wrath of God on the earth.
Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
Which rooms do you think these are?
I don't mean five languages. I mean five different kinds of tongues. Here's my list. (limited)
Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)
The kind most people think of in I Corinthians is #3 on this list.
The tongues at the outpouring at Pentecost would be #5.
Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)
The kind most people think of in I Corinthians is #3 on this list.
The tongues at the outpouring at Pentecost would be #5.
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I have never seen or heard legitimate tongues my entire life. And believe me, I am watching.
I have however heard and seen outrageous nonsensical gibberish posing as tongues. Bogus tongues can be seen on YouTube any time you like. Legitimate tongues? Quite the contrary.
Nor one single solitary legitimate miraculous healing of the "capital A" Apostle kind.
Your points 1 thru 4 are common to all Christians. In their native tongue unless they are polyglots.
I have however heard and seen outrageous nonsensical gibberish posing as tongues. Bogus tongues can be seen on YouTube any time you like. Legitimate tongues? Quite the contrary.
Nor one single solitary legitimate miraculous healing of the "capital A" Apostle kind.
Your points 1 thru 4 are common to all Christians. In their native tongue unless they are polyglots.
Paul is expressing that his true desire would be to die and be face to face with Christ rather than be here dealing with this mortal life. However, he realizes that God can and will use him to help educate unbelievers and believers alike if he stays.
Phil 1:23-24
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
KJV
Phil 1:23-24
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
KJV
You have a right to your opinion.
If you have never heard "legitimate" tongues how would you know the difference?
Oftentimes when I am out in public I will hear what sounds like tongues at my church.
When I look I see some foreigners speaking to one another.
Since you say only only apostles with a capital "A" can administer healing, I am guessing that you are a Cessationist.
You wouldn't believe they were authentic tongues no matter what.
If you have never heard "legitimate" tongues how would you know the difference?
Oftentimes when I am out in public I will hear what sounds like tongues at my church.
When I look I see some foreigners speaking to one another.
Since you say only only apostles with a capital "A" can administer healing, I am guessing that you are a Cessationist.
You wouldn't believe they were authentic tongues no matter what.
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If you have never heard "legitimate" tongues how would you know the difference?
When somebody....anybody.....posts the video here on CC forums. Simple. And if the phenomenon is so utterly commonplace, so should be the PRIMA FACIE evidence. Competent medical observers would be useful as well.
Bottom line: Early Church tongues were an absolute fact, verified by Church witnesses and authorities and DULY RECORDED and on the record.
Now? Not so much. Waiting for the duly recorded requirement. Still waiting.
Please upload your videos to this thread.
BTW I am no cessationist. Sign gifts will return in due time at the end times.
Thank you for your time.
When somebody....anybody.....posts the video here on CC forums. Simple. And if the phenomenon is so utterly commonplace, so should be the PRIMA FACIE evidence. Competent medical observers would be useful as well.
Bottom line: Early Church tongues were an absolute fact, verified by Church witnesses and authorities and DULY RECORDED and on the record.
Now? Not so much. Waiting for the duly recorded requirement. Still waiting.
Please upload your videos to this thread.
BTW I am no cessationist. Sign gifts will return in due time at the end times.
Thank you for your time.
Thanks. That's a good word.
I have never addressed the whole congregation in tongues.
But I do my personal prayer language and the same for intercessory prayer. (praying in the Spirit)
I have also seen healing come.
A man walked into a healing service using a cane because his back was in terrible pain.
He could barely walk. I was in the prayer line when they aske us to pray for the person ahead of us.
I felt a tremendous heat come on my hands. I didn't tell the man I was praying for that this was happening.
I asked if he felt anything while I prayed for him. He reported a tremendous heat on his back where I was laying my hands.
His pain had gone from a 10 to an 8, so we pressed in until it went to 5 and then 3 and then 0.
Afterwards he was walking around the sanctuary waving the cane over his head praising God.
The next Sunday he testified before the church that he had been healed and that I had prayed for him.
This has not happened to me since. I thought God was showing me that I had a healing ministry. Not so.
I have never addressed the whole congregation in tongues.
But I do my personal prayer language and the same for intercessory prayer. (praying in the Spirit)
I have also seen healing come.
A man walked into a healing service using a cane because his back was in terrible pain.
He could barely walk. I was in the prayer line when they aske us to pray for the person ahead of us.
I felt a tremendous heat come on my hands. I didn't tell the man I was praying for that this was happening.
I asked if he felt anything while I prayed for him. He reported a tremendous heat on his back where I was laying my hands.
His pain had gone from a 10 to an 8, so we pressed in until it went to 5 and then 3 and then 0.
Afterwards he was walking around the sanctuary waving the cane over his head praising God.
The next Sunday he testified before the church that he had been healed and that I had prayed for him.
This has not happened to me since. I thought God was showing me that I had a healing ministry. Not so.
Speaking in tongues is a gift to speak in another language you didn't learn on your own, but it is God giving you the gift to speak to others so you may testify, spread the Gospel and so on to others if you don't know their language.
The tongues that go - "waka batta riki tiki ozu kiss me!" while someone throws their hands up in middle of a chapel service or even do it alone in a room are not real gifts of God of speaking in tongues. The bible clearly states someone should not be speaking in tongues if people don't understand and there is no translator. Speaking in the tongues Pentecostals refer to is a lie and misunderstood.
I prayed about it, for the fact most my family are Pentecostals, they do this, and they claim if you are saved you will do this. I studied a long time to be sure about this and asking the Lord for understanding. Even at a service, the pastor who does this fake stuff tried to teach my friend how to do it, but his voice just goes "uuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh" and they tell him he will start to speak in tongues eventually if he is saved and has the holy spirit. But he always went "uhhhh." So would I if I believed that junk.
They tell me they don't even know what they are saying to God, but they can feel something while they do it. Its as if God is glorifying himself by speaking through you. If you ask me, that looks completely useless and not like any of the other things God does. It serves no need or purpose. Would he rather us not know what we are saying to him? Do we need to speak in another language to glorify him? No.
I know if I was willing to do the will of god and seek him with all my heart that he would reveal the truth about his words, and he did. But of course even some Pentecostals debate on certain details how and what speaking in tongues is. Some say all Christians will have this gift, it's a sign you are saved and filled with the spirit, some say it's only a gift for some chosen people and such.
I know it's all false. It has a purpose to translate. It serves a godly purpose. That gibberish doesn't.
I've read enough scripture, seen enough experiences and spoke with the Lord about it long enough to know.
The tongues that go - "waka batta riki tiki ozu kiss me!" while someone throws their hands up in middle of a chapel service or even do it alone in a room are not real gifts of God of speaking in tongues. The bible clearly states someone should not be speaking in tongues if people don't understand and there is no translator. Speaking in the tongues Pentecostals refer to is a lie and misunderstood.
I prayed about it, for the fact most my family are Pentecostals, they do this, and they claim if you are saved you will do this. I studied a long time to be sure about this and asking the Lord for understanding. Even at a service, the pastor who does this fake stuff tried to teach my friend how to do it, but his voice just goes "uuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh" and they tell him he will start to speak in tongues eventually if he is saved and has the holy spirit. But he always went "uhhhh." So would I if I believed that junk.
They tell me they don't even know what they are saying to God, but they can feel something while they do it. Its as if God is glorifying himself by speaking through you. If you ask me, that looks completely useless and not like any of the other things God does. It serves no need or purpose. Would he rather us not know what we are saying to him? Do we need to speak in another language to glorify him? No.
I know if I was willing to do the will of god and seek him with all my heart that he would reveal the truth about his words, and he did. But of course even some Pentecostals debate on certain details how and what speaking in tongues is. Some say all Christians will have this gift, it's a sign you are saved and filled with the spirit, some say it's only a gift for some chosen people and such.
I know it's all false. It has a purpose to translate. It serves a godly purpose. That gibberish doesn't.
I've read enough scripture, seen enough experiences and spoke with the Lord about it long enough to know.
What do you make of this?
1 Corinthians 14:2
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
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Who were these tongues speakers speaking to? (check the context)
Acts 10:46
For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who were these tongues speakers speaking to? (check the context)
Acts 10:46
For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
Acts 19:6
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
If you really want to know, this pastor agrees with me and explains it far better than me. You can listen here, read it here, or look it up on Youtube.
https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-61/Speaking-in-Tongues
https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-61/Speaking-in-Tongues
1 Corinthians 14:14, "If I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful."
What do you make of this?
What do you make of this?