Calvinism Critiqued

[preacher4truth]

that Jesus-is-savior website is very very VERY easy-believism. No repentance.

But yeah. Another calvinist thread lets have it a go.

I dare NOT critique calvinism anymore, despite being so hard on it earlier. After being pointed out that some people departed Jesus SPECIFICALLY because of His teaching on predestination. I dont want to mess with that.

Oh and btw: Calling Martin Luther a heretic is a classic. In the sense that without Luther you wouldn't even be able to read the Bible in your language, or have the knowledge to call him a heretic, you would be bowing to the Pope if it wasnt for him!
Historical context people! Luther was a great man of God!

Funny thing, Martin Luther had some issues, therefore he must be hanged on the gallows. Calvin "killed" people, hang him too.

Now Moses, yes, he killed that Egyptian guy, but he gets a pass because he was probably Pelagian or anti Calvinist. (Disregard Exodus 33:18-19 showing Moses's "Calvinism" when he wanted to know God and his glory, and what God told him in answer to his request!!!! Jean Calvin put that there!!!!!!! Arrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!)

Wait! We have some issues too! Are we too stupid to learn from Haman? Yes!!!!!!!

 

[PennEd]

Let's stick with the issue at hand, not the vitriol. Describing a persons beliefs and track record does not equate to vitriol -- society has made it to be so, but it isn't true.

Keep in mind Ed I am not describing you concerning vitriol, I am only making a point.

It is useful to describe the opponents beliefs and their track record, showing any bias and the subjective nature of their arguments.

Since the entire objective is to describe what the person believes (The OP) namely Calvinists it is a fitting tool. This is therefore useful in rebuttal.

Secondly, deal with the texts. It is sad, but it is true that the anti Calvinists here and elsewhere on the www do not deal with the text but offer Scripture they think pits itself against other truths.

If the texts are dealt with they are done so out of context. That is a fact and it needs to be faced and treated.

Take time to read "The Potter's Freedom" and you will see exactly what I am saying on all accounts, both of the persons position making objection, and how they take Scripture out of context to support anti Calvinist doctrine, pitting Scripture against Scripture. Sad but true.

I hear what you are saying, but what really disturbs me is the division caused by labeling. I don't want to be known as a Calvinist or Arminian, or a Protestant, or you name it...

I want to be known as a Christian. One who has been born again, and loves God for all He has done for me and to me.

P Rehbein, and 7seas, and You and others that I disagree with on certain things are wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ. We have put our faith in Jesus Christ, and trust Him alone for Salvation. I don't think that makes me a universalist, and I don't want to sing kumbaya.

If we are going to discuss these issues we MUST find a way to do it without ugly dissension.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This post could have been written by a democrat talking about republicans. The left will start all kinds of trouble and mischief, bad mouth the right, and then be surprised and angry when the right has the gall to fight back!

Time and time again we see relative harmony on CC and then POOF!!! For no apparent reason a let's bash Calvinist thread starts. I'm not saying there aren't anti Arminian threads, but they sure seem few and far between in comparison.

I didn't know squat about John Calvin or Calvinism, or tulip til I came here. And I have some issues with some of the hard lines that some adhere to, but between the constant calvinist bashing, and the fact that much of the doctrine is Scripturally defensible, it may require more scrutiny.

LOL!

gee yah know someone told me that there are no politicians in heaven

only those bought by the blood of the Lamb

that is actually my main point

you are one of the fairer members in this forum, but honestly, do you think that is an appropriate response?

I didn't start the thread, it's a public forum and I see you are here also

it's a shame so many see an objection to Calvinism as bashing Calvinism. by default, all non-Calvinists are also bashed

perhaps not attacking members would provide an actual conversation instead of labelling and having no desire to converse
that is not necessarily directed towards you, but bringing up American politics as though they played a part?

well, that is you and frankly a non sequitur but often played in these forums. I am not for either party and I am not American (no secret) but it seems to me politics is put above Christian principles by many and brought up far too often and I am not all meaning to insult you and I am not saying that you are attacking members as I have not really known you to do that

and I did not know diddly squat either about Calvinism or his 5 points either until I came here

and I would be alarmed if there was total harmony in these forums. I do not see total harmony revealed anywhere in scripture in either testament.

iron sharpens iron...but folks do not need to run others through cause some swords are way bigger than others and opinions are not swords

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I suggest you actually read some posts people have made against calvanism, You have been here almost as long as me, You should know what I am talking about.. The hate is quite appearant, from BOTH SIDES.

yes I have certainly been here for a good length of time

I don't know what you are talking about because there should be NO desire to make things personal in these forums

THAT is actually what causes people to flare up

well that, and folks contributing words no one said

I have read all the posts and as far as I know, no one but you mentioned hatred

my last post to you because you will keep it going until sundown LOL!...and that I say because I do know how you post

the entire disagreement is moot and will never be resolved here so...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Of course red flags went up with the article in the OP, and frankly this is due to the known bias and false gospel of the OP himself.

if the op believes in Christ as his Savior and follows Him, he has no false gospel

on the other hand, Calvin never saved anyone and that is clearly indicated in TULIP

 

[Locutus]

It's a good idea to tiptoe round the tulips

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes I have certainly been here for a good length of time

I don't know what you are talking about because there should be NO desire to make things personal in these forums

I agree. Not only no desire. But no allowance for making things personal. Including those who Slander people because they do not take the time to understand what they believe

THAT is actually what causes people to flare up

It is not just this. But I agree here also.

well that, and folks contributing words no one said

Or beliefs no one has (I have been mocked and condemned because I call people out for this)

I have read all the posts and as far as I know, no one but you mentioned hatred

my last post to you because you will keep it going until sundown LOL!...and that I say because I do know how you post

the entire disagreement is moot and will never be resolved here so...

Where do you think it all comes from? Pride? Hate? Anger? It all comes from the some spirit does it not.

I also agree it will not be resolved, According to you I am pretty much always wrong..Of course we know where that came from also..

so lets just leave it there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if the op believes in Christ as his Savior and follows Him, he has no false gospel

on the other hand, Calvin never saved anyone and that is clearly indicated in TULIP

Does he believe this?

I know he says he does. (many do who do not believe this any more than they believe God will complete what he started, even though God promised he would) But then he says things which would make people think otherwise..like God may not complete what he pro,ised he would..

 

[PennEd]

LOL!

gee yah know someone told me that there are no politicians in heaven

only those bought by the blood of the Lamb

that is actually my main point

you are one of the fairer members in this forum, but honestly, do you think that is an appropriate response?

I didn't start the thread, it's a public forum and I see you are here also

it's a shame so many see an objection to Calvinism as bashing Calvinism. by default, all non-Calvinists are also bashed

perhaps not attacking members would provide an actual conversation instead of labelling and having no desire to converse
that is not necessarily directed towards you, but bringing up American politics as though they played a part?

well, that is you and frankly a non sequitur but often played in these forums. I am not for either party and I am not American (no secret) but it seems to me politics is put above Christian principles by many and brought up far too often and I am not all meaning to insult you and I am not saying that you are attacking members as I have not really known you to do that

and I did not know diddly squat either about Calvinism or his 5 points either until I came here

and I would be alarmed if there was total harmony in these forums. I do not see total harmony revealed anywhere in scripture in either testament.

iron sharpens iron...but folks do not need to run others through cause some swords are way bigger than others and opinions are not swords

The politics thing was just an analogy. Obviously this discussion has nothing to do with American politics.

I think if you reread your post # 12 you might see it's a liiittttllle more than just an objection to calvinism. In fact, you don't address at all the tenets of it.

You don't think calling people dictators, and insinuating those who follow are lazy sheep MORE than just objections?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The politics thing was just an analogy. Obviously this discussion has nothing to do with American politics.

I think if you reread your post # 12 you might see it's a liiittttllle more than just an objection to calvinism. In fact, you don't address at all the tenets of it.

You don't think calling people dictators, and insinuating those who follow are lazy sheep MORE than just objections?

well of course it is! why would I address the tenets of Calvinism? that is left for the believers in Calvinism to do.

when Calvinism is brought up, I have hardly ever heard anything about the actual gospel

Calvinism is not the gospel!

and then for someone to say to the op his gospel is false is really a bridge too far

I like what you said about Christian.

Calvin is dead. that is who I called a dictator.

on the other hand, Christ is risen indeed

and I sure do not take back what I said about sheep. God himself calls people sheep...sheep follow

that is my point.

even I am a sheep if Christ is my shepherd. however, I do not get my Christianity served once a week on a Sunday morning as far far too many people do.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Does he believe this?

I know he says he does. (many do who do not believe this any more than they believe God will complete what he started, even though God promised he would) But then he says things which would make people think otherwise..like God may not complete what he pro,ised he would..

I have never seen the op say anything that would indicate he is not saved

however I have seen too many Calvinists call those who do not follow Calvinism unsaved

what is Calvinism but another take on salvation? no free choice...which totally contradicts scripture

I answered you anyway

 

[oldethennew]

thanks Brother PR,
you do have a way of bringing out the worst or best in people...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have never seen the op say anything that would indicate he is not saved

however I have seen too many Calvinists call those who do not follow Calvinism unsaved

what is Calvinism but another take on salvation? no free choice...which totally contradicts scripture

I answered you anyway

I can only go by what I have heard him say, and what his signature used to say.

Thats beside the point though,

But looking here

We have the ops take, salvation must be maintained or it can be lost (self help)

Vs calvins take, salvation is secured to those who believe (While I diagree HOW that beief came to be, I agree, that for those adopted into Gods family, they are secure in christ)

I do think most people who follow calvin are in my family. I am not sure people who think they must maitnain salvation are. How can they be if they are relying on self. Not Christ?

Either way, Like I said before. The anger and attack comes from both sides.. Not just one..My ignore list has quite a few people from the calvin side residing because of their attitude.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I agree. Not only no desire. But no allowance for making things personal. Including those who Slander people because they do not take the time to understand what they believe



It is not just this. But I agree here also.



Or beliefs no one has (I have been mocked and condemned because I call people out for this)



Where do you think it all comes from? Pride? Hate? Anger? It all comes from the some spirit does it not.

I also agree it will not be resolved, According to you I am pretty much always wrong..Of course we know where that came from also..

so lets just leave it there.

'according to me you are always pretty much wrong'...please quote where I said that and while you are busy with that, kindly quote the person who mentioned hatred (hint it was you and no one else)

I really don't know what you are trying to say here because you seen to indicate you are able to read people's thoughts...like saying you know where something comes from. that is one reason I usually do not respond to you. you are condemning what I did not say and you are not privy to my thoughts...so where does the fact you seem to think you know what others are thinking come from?

so, even though I did reply after saying I wouldn't, I think I will abide by my first decision. I really cannot stress enough how impossible it is to discuss anything with someone who thinks they know better what another thinks then the person themself

where do I think people disagreeing comes from? different places and not all negative

as far as discussing the op, count me out. that is another thing you do. you discuss people and not the op

 

[eternally-gratefull]

'according to me you are always pretty much wrong'...

It has come in your posts to me the last few years. How else would I interpret what you think?

please quote where I said that and while you are busy with that, kindly quote the person who mentioned hatred (hint it was you and no one else)

I really don't know what you are trying to say here because you seen to indicate you are able to read people's thoughts...like saying you know where something comes from. that is one reason I usually do not respond to you. you are condemning what I did not say and you are not privy to my thoughts...so where does the fact you seem to think you know what others are thinking come from?

It seems like all you are desiring is to try to argue,

You have seen hate before.. If you can not interpret what it looks like. I must wonder.

so, even though I did reply after saying I wouldn't, I think I will abide by my first decision. I really cannot stress enough how impossible it is to discuss anything with someone who thinks they know better what another thinks then the person themself

This is funny.. How can you read what I wrote aqnd come to this conclusion. Again, it seems you just want to argue and belittle me, But I have come to expect that. I still do not know what I did to upset you. I guess I will never know..

where do I think people disagreeing comes from? different places and not all negative

I disagree with many people. Many people disagree with me, But you do not see us attacking each other, Belittling them, or slandering them

I am talking about the hatred, the slander the attack of others (on both sides) of certain debates. Or did you forget this is what we were discussing already?

as far as discussing the op, count me out. that is another thing you do. you discuss people and not the op

Its alright, I was just responding to what you said anyway.. No problem.

 

[p_rehbein]

Oh, contraire, but it is! Total inability is here: John 6:41-71. Therefore you and your hate source are incorrect. It is no surprise that you can find one who has apostatized to use as "evidence."



More drivel. Man cannot respond to God, cannot come to him unless God does a work to rescue him. That is a fact and it is consistent in Scripture.

The entire premise of the OP is absolutely false.

Ever notice p_rehbein rarely or never uses Scripture? Ever wonder why he only scours the internet to find a source that agrees with his hatred of salvation by grace without works, and exaltation of man's ability?

But I digress, Scripture shows both p_rehbein and his sought out agreeable source to both be errant.

Dude.............are you really that ignorant? "p. rehbein said?" Dude, you are quoting from an Article.......I DID NOT write the Article........no wonder you get so many things wrong.........goodness

 

[p_rehbein]

False! Neither taught baptismal regeneration.



Another lie...



Oh, such an unbiased and truthful source, LOL!!!!!!!!

I snipped the balance because the above "christian" site takes everything out of context to malign, bear false witness and ridicule in ignorance just like p_rehbein does.

For the record p_rehbeinn preaches a works gospel, that we are saved by works.

And, yet again you lie........good thing you believe in predestination, given the amount of lies you tell, it's the only way you will get to heaven..............

 

[p_rehbein]

I don't quite get the concept that because words like "total depravity" or "eternal security" aren't written verbatim in Scripture this voids the doctrine.

We need only look at the doctrine of the Trinity. Nowhere is that word in Scripture, yet we all know that there are numerous passages that confirm God is indeed a Triune Being.

Agreed...........

 

[p_rehbein]

I figure Calvinism...especially the hyper Calvinists...is a snare and attempts to confine God's sovereignty to mankind's' understanding

the fact Calvin actually had killed those who opposed him, should be enough to give anyone pause

sounds more like rule by dictatorship and God is no dictator

further, the anger and intolerance exposed when this subject is brought up, is something that should make folks back away from this false doctrine

IMO, certain personality types adhere to Calvinism at all costs, with the majority being sheep who need to follow and prefer to have someone else do the hard work...probably the majority

and here come the x's which mean nothing whatsoever as the opinions have already been expressed and we are clear on who thinks what

I don't have a problem with folks believing in predestination. Just as I don't have a problem with folks who believe grace only, water baptism saves........whatever.........it is their God given right to read Scripture and determined what they believe as they are led to believe. It's called free will...........

What I DO have a problem with is folks who profess to be the disciple of a man who ordered the murder of people that disagreed with his teachings.................This is HISTORIC FACT.

How about folks identifying themselves as disciples of Christ, and then their particular views/beliefs of Scripture? In this case..............someone saying they are a Christian and they believe in predestination.

No problem.............some will agree, some won't............

 

[p_rehbein]

This post could have been written by a democrat talking about republicans. The left will start all kinds of trouble and mischief, bad mouth the right, and then be surprised and angry when the right has the gall to fight back!

Time and time again we see relative harmony on CC and then POOF!!! For no apparent reason a let's bash Calvinist thread starts. I'm not saying there aren't anti Arminian threads, but they sure seem few and far between in comparison.

I didn't know squat about John Calvin or Calvinism, or tulip til I came here. And I have some issues with some of the hard lines that some adhere to, but between the constant calvinist bashing, and the fact that much of the doctrine is Scripturally defensible, it may require more scrutiny.

Actually Brother, for a few weeks now, there are a few here who have been proclaiming the wonder of Calvinism, and putting down those who disagree with them. I have been witnessing it almost daily, and I got fed up with it. If ANYONE is acting like political attack dogs, it is the few here who have been banging Calvin's drum day after day. You may have missed some of the comments, and "relative harmony" in my opinion is a bit of a stretch since a few of these newbies have arrived with their proclamation that John Calvin's teachings are CARVED IN STONE Biblical Truth.............

So, why not give them a taste of their own medicine? You see how they react when the shoe is on the other foot, right? Such is the way with such as these............

All you or anyone needs to know about John Calvin is he ORDERED the murder of people who disagreed with his teachings................ I don't care if someone believes in predestination, I DO have a problem with folks who praise and proclaim the greatness of a known murderer.