Is Universalsim in Opposition to the Bible?
- Thread starter IsaiahX
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
We are told this will happen in the end.
At least on the national level. Which raises a question about "all tongues" and "all tribes".
And about all those before the end.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
At least on the national level. Which raises a question about "all tongues" and "all tribes".
And about all those before the end.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Yes, thanks. I am familiar with Wycliffe translation work.
The church I grew up in supported at least one family as missionaries for Wycliffe.
And what you are saying is good. However...
My understanding is that he whole word is under condemnation.
But you correct. There remains the question about those who have had no opportunity to believe.
Although it seems that I am asking that question, you have not. As I recall.
This verse seems to indicate that belief is a reversal of that condemnation that hangs over the whole world.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
The church I grew up in supported at least one family as missionaries for Wycliffe.
And what you are saying is good. However...
My understanding is that he whole word is under condemnation.
But you correct. There remains the question about those who have had no opportunity to believe.
Although it seems that I am asking that question, you have not. As I recall.
This verse seems to indicate that belief is a reversal of that condemnation that hangs over the whole world.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Well those who have accepted the Way of salvation are not under condemnation anymore are they... So the whole world is not under condemnation..
The only question is how they will respond when they do have the opportunity to respond to the Message of the Gospel..
I asked God this question long ago and i believe He lead me to the scriptures i posted to you earlier in this thread when it revealed that Jesus went to hell to preach to the people in hell some of whom had been there since the days of Noah and the great flood.. God saw to it that those who had never heard the Gospel message heard it from Jesus Himself..
This verse does not reveal the removal of the state of condemnation from all the world.. It reveals that the state of condemnation is still on anyone who has disbelieved Jesus and His Gospel message..
The only question is how they will respond when they do have the opportunity to respond to the Message of the Gospel..
I asked God this question long ago and i believe He lead me to the scriptures i posted to you earlier in this thread when it revealed that Jesus went to hell to preach to the people in hell some of whom had been there since the days of Noah and the great flood.. God saw to it that those who had never heard the Gospel message heard it from Jesus Himself..
This verse does not reveal the removal of the state of condemnation from all the world.. It reveals that the state of condemnation is still on anyone who has disbelieved Jesus and His Gospel message..
Your understanding of these things is quite different from mine.
My understanding is that innocence was lost at the Fall.
That everyone in Adam's race is born a sinner. The whole world is under condemnation.
I think of it as the default setting. That which we need to be rescued (saved) from.
Even the word "sin" has a general and a specific meaning.
It refers to individual acts and also to our state of being.
Romans 5:11-13
Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— 13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
My understanding is that innocence was lost at the Fall.
That everyone in Adam's race is born a sinner. The whole world is under condemnation.
I think of it as the default setting. That which we need to be rescued (saved) from.
Even the word "sin" has a general and a specific meaning.
It refers to individual acts and also to our state of being.
Romans 5:11-13
Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— 13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
Well i agree we have different views on Christianity and Gods will in general.. Yes we humans are born with a built in self destruct mode called sin an inability to control our knowledge of good and evil.. But we live for a time without sin.. It's like humans who Get HIV virus they have it in them and it lies dormant until the person gets full blown Aids.. If the infected person lives long enough they will get full blown Aids but if they die for some reason before that then they will never develop Aids..
As for the last line of that scripture
""" But sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no Law"""
With that in mind lets read more from Paul in the book of Romans::
Romans 7: KJV
9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. {10} And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."
When was Paul alive without the Law ??? When He was an innocent little one..
As for the last line of that scripture
""" But sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no Law"""
With that in mind lets read more from Paul in the book of Romans::
Romans 7: KJV
9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. {10} And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."
When was Paul alive without the Law ??? When He was an innocent little one..
I think what confuses a lot of people when considering scripture is they take it as God's inerrant word and that's it. Every "jot and tittle" was written by the finger of God. But that's not true. That's why Apologetics and Bibliology are disciplines that exist in the faith. So that as God told us , we can realize we are not to believe every spirit but are to test the spirits and find the truth.
Consider what you believe because of what you've been taught all this time.
We all know the scriptures so to save time lets synopsize.
God created all things and no thing that exists was created by any other than God.
God is all knowing, eternal, everywhere present, eternally kind, and the Alpha and the Omega of creation. The beginning and the end. Even though Holy Spirit God has no beginning nor end as creator God's power is the beginning and the end of things created.
God knew who would come to salvation before he created the world. Which means he knew salvation principle would exist before he created the garden, the Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge. And he knew those who can only come to him through his son by name.
God let the Devil and 1/3 of the angels that sided with the adversary in the war in Heaven live after they lost the war. He cast them down to the earth where he would then give life to innocent humans, Adam and Eve, who had no understanding of good and evil, right and wrong.
God let Satan, ha Satan, return to Heaven a time or two to confer with him about his actions here on the earth where he walks too and fro at his leisure and seeks, like unto a hungry lion, souls to devour. The only souls he can take would be those whom God does not know are his, and knew are his, before the world came to exist for ha Satan to tread upon.
God created Hell to receive ha Satan and his angels, ha Satan allowed to commiserate with God in the meantime, at the end of days.
And then God decided to allow those souls he did not know before the creation of the world and by name but that came to life by his will and for his purpose. As all things occur in the domain of God to enter Hell with ha Satan and his angels at the end of days and for the punishment of their unrepentant in sins that are defined as transgressions against the law God created in the beginning. As did he the definition of sin, which is transgressions of the law God established.
But he's eternally kind.
There was no Hell, fire and brimstone, in the original Bible.
The HyperTexts
Was Hell in the Original Bible?
Was "hell" in the original Bible? No, the word "hell" did not appear anywhere in the original Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament (OT). Not in a single verse! Furthermore the word "hell" is also very hard to find in the New Testament (NT). You can easily confirm this by using an online Bible search tool to scan various Bible translations for the word "hell." Or you can refer to the table below, which was produced by Gary Amirault, a Bible scholar who has extensively researched the question of "hell" as a biblical teaching. I have added two translations to Amirault's original list: the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB), sponsored by the famously literal and conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and the New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE), produced by more than a hundred Bible scholars working for the Roman Catholic Church. Amazingly, even the most conservative Bible scholars now agree that the God of the Hebrew prophets never mentioned "hell"―not even a single time―in Biblical chronologies covering thousands of years! You can confirm this astounding fact by reading the Bible and verifying that "hell" was never mentioned even to the worst people at the worst times! The possibility of "hell" or suffering after death was never mentioned to Adam and Eve (the original sinners), nor to Cain (the first murderer), nor to the wicked people at the time of Great Flood, nor to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, nor even to the Pharaoh who defied Moses and his God repeatedly!
by Michael R. Burch, a "recovering fundamentalist"
Consider what you believe because of what you've been taught all this time.
We all know the scriptures so to save time lets synopsize.
God created all things and no thing that exists was created by any other than God.
God is all knowing, eternal, everywhere present, eternally kind, and the Alpha and the Omega of creation. The beginning and the end. Even though Holy Spirit God has no beginning nor end as creator God's power is the beginning and the end of things created.
God knew who would come to salvation before he created the world. Which means he knew salvation principle would exist before he created the garden, the Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge. And he knew those who can only come to him through his son by name.
God let the Devil and 1/3 of the angels that sided with the adversary in the war in Heaven live after they lost the war. He cast them down to the earth where he would then give life to innocent humans, Adam and Eve, who had no understanding of good and evil, right and wrong.
God let Satan, ha Satan, return to Heaven a time or two to confer with him about his actions here on the earth where he walks too and fro at his leisure and seeks, like unto a hungry lion, souls to devour. The only souls he can take would be those whom God does not know are his, and knew are his, before the world came to exist for ha Satan to tread upon.
God created Hell to receive ha Satan and his angels, ha Satan allowed to commiserate with God in the meantime, at the end of days.
And then God decided to allow those souls he did not know before the creation of the world and by name but that came to life by his will and for his purpose. As all things occur in the domain of God to enter Hell with ha Satan and his angels at the end of days and for the punishment of their unrepentant in sins that are defined as transgressions against the law God created in the beginning. As did he the definition of sin, which is transgressions of the law God established.
But he's eternally kind.
There was no Hell, fire and brimstone, in the original Bible.
The HyperTexts
Was Hell in the Original Bible?
Was "hell" in the original Bible? No, the word "hell" did not appear anywhere in the original Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament (OT). Not in a single verse! Furthermore the word "hell" is also very hard to find in the New Testament (NT). You can easily confirm this by using an online Bible search tool to scan various Bible translations for the word "hell." Or you can refer to the table below, which was produced by Gary Amirault, a Bible scholar who has extensively researched the question of "hell" as a biblical teaching. I have added two translations to Amirault's original list: the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB), sponsored by the famously literal and conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and the New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE), produced by more than a hundred Bible scholars working for the Roman Catholic Church. Amazingly, even the most conservative Bible scholars now agree that the God of the Hebrew prophets never mentioned "hell"―not even a single time―in Biblical chronologies covering thousands of years! You can confirm this astounding fact by reading the Bible and verifying that "hell" was never mentioned even to the worst people at the worst times! The possibility of "hell" or suffering after death was never mentioned to Adam and Eve (the original sinners), nor to Cain (the first murderer), nor to the wicked people at the time of Great Flood, nor to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, nor even to the Pharaoh who defied Moses and his God repeatedly!
by Michael R. Burch, a "recovering fundamentalist"
This is my exact point. A half truth. John 3:17 represents the desire of the Father, not the will. Not everyone will be saved, though God wants that to be the case (that everyone repent). Yet people do not repent, for any given number of reasons.
As for your last question, God's foreknowledge doesn't infringe upon the will of the individual to repent and believe, and then become saved. His salvation is a free gift obtained through belief at the conviction of the Holy Spirit. He draws and people repent. Saved by grace through faith.
The view you present is as if God determined that Lillywolf would be saved, but John would go to Hell. That He purposed for this hypothetical John to be separate from Him, and you to be with Him for eternity. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it contradicts the desire of the Father, that all be saved.
Now, I must ask you. If the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (as scripture says) who is without excuse? Everyone, for all fall short of God's glory and the Spirit convicts the world. Let us not forget too that creation also reveals the Father. We even have testimonies of Jesus visiting people in dreams and visions, revealing who He is. Do you truly think that God, righteous and just, would allow anyone to not have a chance to repent? He, throughout all of scripture, does it time and again, giving the opportunity to repent.
Universalism contradicts scripture, it is in opposition to the truth. Consider the parable of the sower and how the devil came in to steal the word out of their hearts "lest they should believe and be saved." That the enemy is trying to hinder the salvation of others clearly reveals the faulty logic of Universalism as a doctrine.
As for your last question, God's foreknowledge doesn't infringe upon the will of the individual to repent and believe, and then become saved. His salvation is a free gift obtained through belief at the conviction of the Holy Spirit. He draws and people repent. Saved by grace through faith.
The view you present is as if God determined that Lillywolf would be saved, but John would go to Hell. That He purposed for this hypothetical John to be separate from Him, and you to be with Him for eternity. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it contradicts the desire of the Father, that all be saved.
Now, I must ask you. If the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (as scripture says) who is without excuse? Everyone, for all fall short of God's glory and the Spirit convicts the world. Let us not forget too that creation also reveals the Father. We even have testimonies of Jesus visiting people in dreams and visions, revealing who He is. Do you truly think that God, righteous and just, would allow anyone to not have a chance to repent? He, throughout all of scripture, does it time and again, giving the opportunity to repent.
Universalism contradicts scripture, it is in opposition to the truth. Consider the parable of the sower and how the devil came in to steal the word out of their hearts "lest they should believe and be saved." That the enemy is trying to hinder the salvation of others clearly reveals the faulty logic of Universalism as a doctrine.