Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I study from the KJV because some other versions have changed, or eliminated, words to support salvation by works of man. Maybe you should compare your version to the KJV. Who has eyes to see and ears to hear spiritual things, not the natural man, void of the Holy Spirit.

Uh, what version do you think I am using? There it is, your KJV . . .

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Can you explain that one to me?

I guess you can't handle John 6:40. Verse 40 explains verse 39.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

He's probably busy researching the council of Dork to come up with a pithy answer to John 6:40.

Who is Dork, I have never heard of him?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

And every one which seeth the Son (those who have eyes to see spiritual things, which is not the natural man) and believeth on him (The natural man cannot believe in spiritual things until he has been given the Holy Spirit in regeneration). Now how about you considering verse 39 also. Can you explain that one to me?

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Why is "IT" used instead of "HE"?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Uh, what version do you think I am using? There it is, your KJV . . .

Read it again, it does not say "MAY" it says "SHALL".

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Who is Dork, I have never heard of him?

Dork is the dork that wrote the council of Dork.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Read it again, it does not say "MAY" it says "SHALL".

What verse are you reading 'may'? I'm referencing verse 40.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Why is "IT" used instead of "HE"?

IT - means "all which he hath given me" What do you thing "IT" means? If your answer is - "all mankind" then all mankind will be in heaven, because he said I will lose nothing and that will not harmonize with other scriptures.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What verse are you reading 'may'? I'm referencing verse 40.

Sorry, I thought you were referencing verse 37. So, in verse 40, who do you think he is going to raise up at the last day?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Sorry, I thought you were referencing verse 37. So, in verse 40, who do you think he is going to raise up at the last day?

As I mentioned previously, "every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him" . . . the ones that exercised personal responsibility and free choice of their will to believe on Jesus Christ. Kind of a summation of verses 36-39.

 

[selfdissolving]

Explain to us how in Calvinism nobody needs to ever get saved because they are already saved?

The elect are the ones predestined for salvation, and the preaching of the gospel is the means which God uses to bring them to himself. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him, and he gives unto them eternal life and nothing can pluck them out of his hand.

 

[selfdissolving]

You have that wrong too. The elect is so great an amount that they can not be numbered (Gen 32:12). God is talking to Jacob, who he changed his name to be called Israel, (Gen 32:28), saying I will surly do you good and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. The strait gate in Matt 5 is not talking about leading to eternal life, but to the abundant life that those of his elect have that have been revealed the truths of Jesus's doctrine. The wide gate are also the elect of God who have not been revealed the truth because they are going about to establish their own righteousness by their works. The people going in both gates are God's elect and will all go to heaven because Christ died for them.

False doctrine of universalism.
The multitude of those saved will surely be great if you take into account every single human being saved in the last 2000 years.
But, the multitude of those who will be damned is even greater. The wide gate is one that leads to destruction, not heaven.

No prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20)

 

[selfdissolving]

Yes, but I have never read any other person give this interpretation of the narrow and broad path, so would seem to me that the Holy Spirit would reveal this to others and I would have come across it somewhere?

It's a private interpretation and therefore a false doctrine.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

As I mentioned previously, "every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him" . . . the ones that exercised personal responsibility and free choice of their will to believe on Jesus Christ. Kind of a summation of verses 36-39.

Then, I guess you see it the same way that I do. Only those that God choose and regenerated.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

believe that every word is in the scriptures for a reason and that no verse should be put on the shelf as not explainable without scrutinizing it to your fullest ability, however I am not successful in a lot of cases. I have stuck with the doctrine where the largest amount of scriptures seem to harmonize.

I (and others) also believe every word is in the scriptures for a reason.

You claim you "have stuck with the doctrine where the largest amount of scriptures seem to harmonize".

Now you are "stuck" because you are so "stuck" on election that you completely disregard the fact that God, in His infinite wisdom, allows mankind to reject Him and in allowing mankind to reject Him, God remains sovereign.

So when God tells us in Eph 1:13 that the born again believer hears, then trusts, then believes, then is sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, you change the sequence to read regenerated, then hears, etc.

In reality, you do not "harmonize" Scripture with Scripture. You change Scripture to agree with "the doctrine where the largest amount of scriptures seem [to you] to harmonize".

In my estimation, most of God's children do not understand how depraved the natural man is.

God reveals this truth to us in Scripture so what you are saying is that believers do not really believe Scripture in this regard (even though a lot of us do).

What if it is you who does not understand how powerful God is in bringing people from darkness to light? Heb 4:12 tells us the word of God is quick and powerful …

The word "quick" is the Greek word záō and it means having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul.

The word "powerful" is the Greek word energés and it means energized, full of energy.

For those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, the word of God brings life.

For those who do suppress the truth in unrighteousness, the word of God does not bring life. Not because the word of God is ineffective, but because the word of God is rejected.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I do not believe the scriptures to teach that the natural man can posses the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until he has been regenerated.

But you claim the natural man has to be regenerated before he can "hear" the word of God.

Look at Eph 1:13 again and see the sequence of events:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We trusted after we heard the word of truth; then we believed the gospel of salvation; then we were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Eph 1:13 does not state that regeneration occurs before hearing.

 

[selfdissolving]

So when God tells us in Eph 1:13 that the born again believer hears, then trusts, then believes, then is sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, you change the sequence to read regenerated, then hears, etc.

The only ones who "hear", are the sheep. The sheep are the elect. The elect were chosen from before the foundation of the world.
Those who are not of the sheep do not hear the voice of the shepherd and do not follow him.

What is it that allows one person to hear the gospel and believe it, and another to hear the gospel and reject it? The same message is preached to both.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What is it that allows one person to hear the gospel and believe it, and another to hear the gospel and reject it? The same message is preached to both.

The one who rejects suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The word "hold" is the Greek word katechontōn which means to suppress, restrain, hinder.

So it is not that men do not "hear", it is that when they "hear" they suppress it. The word of God is heard with the ears but is rejected. The word of God does not reach the heart (which is where God brings increase).

 

[Endoscopy]

I don't know what version of the bible you study from, but the KJV says in Eph 1:13, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit (which is the earnest of our inheritance, nor our inheritance) AFTER ye heard the gospel. Maybe you should compare your version with the KJV.

Personally my Bible is my smartphone with a browser at biblegateway.com. I select book and chapter then switch translations between several. KJV is flawed because of the 400 years of changes in English. Language is dynamic so I switch between KJV, NIV, ESV, and AMPC. AMPC has the advantage of putting extra meanings of a word in parentheses. Here is John 3:16 AMPC. Notice the extra meanings of believes in. That addition is significant. Not only belief but acting on the belief.

John 3 AMPC
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life

 

[Endoscopy]

The one who rejects suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The word "hold" is the Greek word katechontōn which means to suppress, restrain, hinder.

So it is not that men do not "hear", it is that when they "hear" they suppress it. The word of God is heard with the ears but is rejected. The word of God does not reach the heart (which is where God brings increase).

The KJV has a phrase that expresses the point with a short clarity that the more verbose translations do not have. "The carnal mind is enmity against God."