Question(s) to those who believe salvation can be lost

[rlm68]

I do not even know what to say in response to such illogical post...

I do not even know what to say in response to such illogical post...

What is there really for you to say, when the KJV claims the word is BACKSLIDER?

Nothing should be your response.

It's not like I am making it up.

And when my Grandfather and Father preached/taught/etc they only used the KJV back then!!

And my point is based upon their teaching. So my scripture reference would be relevant to what bible they used.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Also this scripture, and I guess most of the letter written to the Churches. But in this one they say that it means you have to hold on to the end to overcome and if you turn from God or leave him and don't repent then you will be blotted out of the book of life.

Revelation 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.


2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Those passages are talking about churches, Not people. Candlesticks represent the chruches, When lit, the church is empowered by God to be a light to the community or city.

The warning is to the church to go back to here they first started. If not God will remove his power from that church.
No ones induvidual salvation is being called into question in those passages.

 

[Absolutely]

From reading some of the posts it appears some think if a Christian wilfully sins he can not be forgiven.

 

[Scrobulous]

NOTE: This thread is NOT about debating OSAS vs non-OSAS.

Now that we got that out of the way, lets dive into it:

When i attend, I attend a pentecostal service. And as many of you probably know, I disagree with some of the stuff they teach, but I will not bring this up because I dont want to cause strife and division, because im not a pastor, im just a regular guy.

However, I have often heard people who say you can lose your salvation quote Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26 as a proof text.

Now lets assume for argument's sake that those verses mean exactly the way those who believe in conditional security believe they mean: WHY do so many pentecostals and others who believe you can lose your salvation ALSO believe you can GET IT BACK?
Because Hebrews 6:4-6 specifically says its IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again to repentance? So why all this talk for example about David losing his salvation, then REPENTING and getting it back? Which would go against Hebrews 6:4-6?

For those who just want TL;DR here it is: Why do you believe that you can get your salvation BACK after you lost it, in light of verses that you use to prove salvation can be lost, which say its IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again to repentance (hebr 6:4-6) and no sacrifice remains and they have trampled the blood of Jesus (hebr 10:26ff)?

I think the key words in Hebrews 6:4-6 is ‘if they fall away’ and what this means. I take this to mean a permanent rejection of their previous commitment. In other words, they never did repent. I believe you can walk away from christ, even if you are saved. Consider 2 Tim 2:11-13. This clearly says that you can disown christ and be disowned, BUT, if you are merely faithless i.e. you lapse but come back, then christ remains faithful.
Now it takes a certain attitude to walk away irrevocably and if you have this attitude you will not want to come back, it will be impossible, if you adopt this attitude, to change your mind. If you find you are changing your mind, you don’t have this attitude.
Anyone worried about Hebrews 6:4-6 is by definition not affected! If you were you wouldn’t be reading the bible at all! And you certainly wouldn’t be worried about these verses. You would already have told yourself, it’s all nonsense.

 

[trofimus]

What is there really for you to say, when the KJV claims the word is BACKSLIDER?

Nothing should be your response.

I do not care too much about what the KJV says.

 

[UnderGrace]

I think the key words in Hebrews 6:4-6 is ‘if they fall away’ and what this means. I take this to mean a permanent rejection of their previous commitment. In other words, they never did repent.

Our "commitment" and "repentance" is not the source of our salvation.

 

[Scrobulous]

Our "commitment" and "repentance" is not the source of our salvation.

It is not standard practice for God to force people into heaven. Man has free will. God calls but we have to respond. Likewise we can choose to walk away. We can choose to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, or do you think God compels people to do this?

I never bought into the idea that some are chosen and some are not chosen. All can be saved, it’s just that God, who stands outside time, knows who these people are. From His perspective they were always saved.

No one can take credit for their salvation and by the same token no one can say they wanted to love Jesus but He didn’t want them.

When Christ said repent or perish what do you think he meant? What does identifying the source of our salvation mean? The source is, of course, christ. That anyone is saved is down to the grace of God, but salvation is a two way street. You have to respond to the grace.

 

[UnderGrace]

It is not standard practice for God to force people into heaven. Man has free will. God calls but we have to respond. Likewise we can choose to walk away. We can choose to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, or do you think God compels people to do this?

I never bought into the idea that some are chosen and some are not chosen. All can be saved, it’s just that God, who stands outside time, knows who these people are. From His perspective they were always saved.

No one can take credit for their salvation and by the same token no one can say they wanted to love Jesus but He didn’t want them.

When Christ said repent or perish what do you think he meant? What does identifying the source of our salvation mean? The source is, of course, christ. That anyone is saved is down to the grace of God, but salvation is a two way street. You have to respond to the grace.

Man has free will.

Yes I agree that man has a will that is independent of God's. How "free" I cannot say for sure.

but salvation is a two way street.

Now salvation is an accomplished fact.

It really is not from a lens of two equal wills, God and ours, but rather that God has made a legal declaration as a Supreme Judge, and His declaration is not revocable, we are declared innocent, the debt has been paid by another and we cannot be take back a debt that has been expunged from the record.

Now God is the one that has set it up this way, scripture is very clear about our new status (redeemed, innocent, justified) in Christ.

 

[Scrobulous]

Yes I agree that man has a will that is independent of God's. How "free" I cannot say for sure.



Now salvation is an accomplished fact.

It really is not from a lens of two equal wills, God and ours, but rather that God has made a legal declaration as a Supreme Judge, and His declaration is not revocable, we are declared innocent, the debt has been paid by another and we cannot be take back a debt that has been expunged from the record.

Now God is the one that has set it up this way, scripture is very clear about our new status (redeemed, innocent, justified) in Christ.

Unless we chose to walk away! God is not a tyrant. We can blaspeme the Holy Spirit, we can choose to abandon the faith. This was the concern of the writer to the Hebrews, that christians would go back to Judaism. Certainly God will not adandon us, but we can abandon him.or what do you think 2 Tim 2:12 means.

 

[trofimus]

Unless we chose to walk away! God is not a tyrant. We can blaspeme the Holy Spirit, we can choose to abandon the faith. This was the concern of the writer to the Hebrews, that christians would go back to Judaism. Certainly God will not adandon us, but we can abandon him.or what do you think 2 Tim 2:12 means.

I would agree with you if you would say that "choose" and "can" is about technical possibility, i.e. some Christians can open their mouth and make sounds that create words of blasphemy. There is no "geometrical" necessity that forbids this, its logically possible.

But no true Christian can do it morally. There will still be some good inclination (given by God) that will take this away from the Christian.

Thats what I mean when I say that future is certain, but not necessary.

Do you agree with this?

 

[Scrobulous]

I would agree with you if you would say that "choose" and "can" is about technical possibility, i.e. some Christians can open their mouth and make sounds that create words of blasphemy. There is no "geometrical" necessity that forbids this, its logically possible.

But no true Christian can do it morally. There will still be some good inclination (given by God) that will take this away from the Christian.

Thats what I mean when I say that future is certain, but not necessary.

Do you agree with this?

I take your point, but if this were so, why the warnings? It would have been very simple for the apostles to simply state, unequivocally, that once saved always saved. But they don’t. Certainly a christian has security in his salvation, but there is more to it than that. In times of persecution, when facing death, we have to take a stand. There can be no recanting of the faith before men and repenting when the dangers have passed. If we deny God in the test, then we are warned, God will deny us. Or do you think this is written for unbelievers?

 

[trofimus]

I take your point, but if this were so, why the warnings? It would have been very simple for the apostles to simply state, unequivocally, that once saved always saved. But they don’t. Certainly a christian has security in his salvation, but there is more to it than that. In times of persecution, when facing death, we have to take a stand. There can be no recanting of the faith before men and repenting when the dangers have passed. If we deny God in the test, then we are warned, God will deny us. Or do you think this is written for unbelievers?

I see warnings, commadments, gospel preaching and similar as tools for true Christians to stay "true" and for untrue Christians to be condemned.

Its similar with Christ - for one group its a rock to be built upon, for other group its a stone that will crush them.

 

[Alertandawake]

The problem I have with this concept of once saved always saved is that it can set people up to accept the mark of the beast. This is a reason why once saved always saved has just not made any sense to me.

Now with the reference to Hebrews 6.6, the reference to "fall away/fallen away", seems to relate to apostasy.

Question, when I was reading the previous verse in Heb 6.5, the reference ".....the age/world to come", is this context in relation to a future time period?

 

[Absolutely]

Our "commitment" and "repentance" is not the source of our salvation.

It was for the prodigal. Well kinda. Lets say if either component is removed,the end would be different.

 

[Absolutely]

The problem I have with this concept of once saved always saved is that it can set people up to accept the mark of the beast. This is a reason why once saved always saved has just not made any sense to me.

Now with the reference to Hebrews 6.6, the reference to "fall away/fallen away", seems to relate to apostasy.

Question, when I was reading the previous verse in Heb 6.5, the reference ".....the age/world to come", is this context in relation to a future time period?

It is circular.
If someone in an osas enviroment runs off with some guys wife and a 6 pack,osas default is invoked " well, that ole boy never was saved"

 

[Absolutely]

The problem I have with this concept of once saved always saved is that it can set people up to accept the mark of the beast. This is a reason why once saved always saved has just not made any sense to me.

Now with the reference to Hebrews 6.6, the reference to "fall away/fallen away", seems to relate to apostasy.

Question, when I was reading the previous verse in Heb 6.5, the reference ".....the age/world to come", is this context in relation to a future time period?

There is a parallel debate about the heart of the believer.
Is it fixed and renewed,or replaced?
It is replaced.
The old cut out.
The new installed.

 

[Absolutely]

Peter comes to mind.
His sin was similar to Judas.
".... Go tell the disciples,and peter, ....."

 

[justpassinthrough]

However, I have often heard people who say you can lose your salvation quote Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26 as a proof text.

These are proof texts that show us a person who has willing departed from Christ, in this case it refers to Jews who are Christian’s and have returned to Judaism, either by persecution or being convinced by the threat of persecution.


The context of Hebrews 6 and 10 begins in Hebrews 3 -


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Scripture Key:

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;



The word “departing” is rendered “fall away” in the teaching of Christ about this subject.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus is warning about falling away, which means “departing” from Him while under persecution.


Here is Matthews version of the sower -


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20



It’s important to understand that believing Jews were under constant pressure from their own countrymen, who were still in Judaism, a religion that denies Jesus as the Messiah, as it is to this day, through persecution, family renouncing them, as well as unbelieving Jews trying to convince them to turn back to Judaism by renouncing Jesus as Messiah.



The book of Hebrews was written specifically to them showing them that Jesus Christ is truly their Lord; The Lord of the Old Testament.







JLB

 

[Jan7777777]

NOTE: This thread is NOT about debating OSAS vs non-OSAS.

Now that we got that out of the way, lets dive into it:

When i attend, I attend a pentecostal service. And as many of you probably know, I disagree with some of the stuff they teach, but I will not bring this up because I dont want to cause strife and division, because im not a pastor, im just a regular guy.

However, I have often heard people who say you can lose your salvation quote Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26 as a proof text.

Now lets assume for argument's sake that those verses mean exactly the way those who believe in conditional security believe they mean: WHY do so many pentecostals and others who believe you can lose your salvation ALSO believe you can GET IT BACK?
Because Hebrews 6:4-6 specifically says its IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again to repentance? So why all this talk for example about David losing his salvation, then REPENTING and getting it back? Which would go against Hebrews 6:4-6?

For those who just want TL;DR here it is: Why do you believe that you can get your salvation BACK after you lost it, in light of verses that you use to prove salvation can be lost, which say its IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again to repentance (hebr 6:4-6) and no sacrifice remains and they have trampled the blood of Jesus (hebr 10:26ff)?

the ark was sealed by God and neither Noah nor his family could open that seal, mankind can NOT unseal something their creator sealed,...satan can not reach into a person and snatch their soul once that seal is there its the blood of Christ which has salvation in it.....that being said, ....no man (mankind) can be plucked out of God's hand(seal)....
I have friends that were saved .....lost ,..... saved again when it was convenient, lost again to sin again, ........that tells me that most likely they were not saved to begin with, ...I say this because I was in a church service where 5 members...MEMBERS were saved. they were good people, I would never thought they were lost. satan had them fooled....
...this is how satan deceived people in believing they are lost. saved....lost.....etc. ........... => .the church service I mentioned earlier, the preacher was preaching on the swept garnished but empty scripture.....he stated that , a person prays and repents and ask God to forgive them, and God forgives them and they feel an enormous feeling ( of course they will feel wonderful and clean inside, their past sins are gone_ but remember, he stands at the door and knocks.....so you need to ASK him in....if you don't all you have is your sins forgiven, the enemy comes back and sees it swept garnished BUT, EMPTY. empty because that person did not ask Christ in (remember he stands at the door and knocks, he wont jump in a person, he waits to be ask in as Lord of that person. when you request him to be Lord, you are his child. parents have children rebel, and even kids have divorced their parents in court, are they still the parent...yes, that child was born to them whether they like it or not. ) so these people that had that supernatural feeling of sins forgiven go out into the world and cant handle the pressures without God,(but think they are saved and confused why he isn't helping them ) the nature loves to sin, its born to sin, without God how can they reframe from it? on their own? God showed me this when I was wondering if I had ask Christ in when I was a child and I didn't remember so I prayed and had a out of body experience, that I wont go into cause its too long.

 

[UnderGrace]

Unless we chose to walk away! God is not a tyrant. We can blaspeme the Holy Spirit, we can choose to abandon the faith. This was the concern of the writer to the Hebrews, that christians would go back to Judaism. Certainly God will not adandon us, but we can abandon him.or what do you think 2 Tim 2:12 means.

"Tyrant" is an interesting choice of words

It can only be understood within the larger context of assurance of salvation which is the Gospel.

The book of Hebrews is actually a book that reinforces over and over again the assurance of the believer.

Assurance of salvation is the starting point for understanding the New Covenant.

The defendant has no authority to overturn the verdict of the Judge, "Innocent" He may have the will but not the choice. Big difference