Calvinism vs. Arminianism?
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....an "issue", or conclusion, that you would certainly come to yourself, IF you weren't so contented that being "in" the sheeps pen, via the "sheeps-gate", which is Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior, or preserved In Christ, is to be the believers' FINAL destination!
Beings as being in the Sheeps pen via the sheeps gate is the only correct WAY! Key word here is "WAY!" NOT Final Destination!
Beings as being in the Sheeps pen via the sheeps gate is the only correct WAY! Key word here is "WAY!" NOT Final Destination!
His foreknowledge showed him that none would be saved (Ps 53:2-3). That is why he choose an elect people before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). He also secured the elects destination to heaven by his Son's death on the cross. Christ died for all that the Father gave him and that was not all mankind because he said that he WOULD NOT LOSE ANY of them but raise them up at the last day. You are saying that God cannot accomplish his will. How about Dan 4:35? How about Isaiah 46:10? It is not God's will that all mankind be saved because he accomplishes all his will.
Okay, if God through foreknowledge knew that the majority of the world would be lost what need has He to 'pick' (elect) the ones that He already knows will be saved? He doesn't need to do anything other than watch them come to Christ.
The whole concept of election has to do with what a believer will do or be after He comes to Christ.
But see, Calvinists take it beyond reason when they start trying to add stuff to somehow make their view seem more plausible. It is ridiculous therefore to suggest that God gives them the faith to believe, that first they are sealed by the Holy Spirit AND THEN do they believe.
The whole error of Calvinism has to do with a faulty view of foreknowledge even to the point where they redefine the word to mean a decree. It is simply that God already knows what will happen. He observes the course of human history - but takes no active role is forcing a man to do this or that in relation to salvation, though He certainly does do so in the case of those He chooses for service.
I have no problem believing that God prepares a man for his Christian life through experiences - even when he is still lost. He takes some through cults, for example, to give them a deeper love and respect for His Word.
The whole concept of election has to do with what a believer will do or be after He comes to Christ.
But see, Calvinists take it beyond reason when they start trying to add stuff to somehow make their view seem more plausible. It is ridiculous therefore to suggest that God gives them the faith to believe, that first they are sealed by the Holy Spirit AND THEN do they believe.
The whole error of Calvinism has to do with a faulty view of foreknowledge even to the point where they redefine the word to mean a decree. It is simply that God already knows what will happen. He observes the course of human history - but takes no active role is forcing a man to do this or that in relation to salvation, though He certainly does do so in the case of those He chooses for service.
I have no problem believing that God prepares a man for his Christian life through experiences - even when he is still lost. He takes some through cults, for example, to give them a deeper love and respect for His Word.
Sure dude! As the "natural man" sees what I posted as "folly?" This I post now, will be just as full of folly!
John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am THE WAY, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH unto the Father, but by me.
Further on, Jesus states: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath "SEEN" the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Key word here is SEEN! As "SEEING", is NOT "cometh unto" the Father? Is it?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak NOT of MYSELF: but the Father that DWELLETH in me, he doeth the works.
Philippians 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the MARK For The PRIZE of the High CALLING of God in Christ Jesus.
John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am THE WAY, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH unto the Father, but by me.
Further on, Jesus states: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath "SEEN" the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Key word here is SEEN! As "SEEING", is NOT "cometh unto" the Father? Is it?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak NOT of MYSELF: but the Father that DWELLETH in me, he doeth the works.
Philippians 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the MARK For The PRIZE of the High CALLING of God in Christ Jesus.
Sure dude! As the "natural man" sees what I posted as "folly?" This I post now, will be just as full of folly!
John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am THE WAY, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH unto the Father, but by me.
Further on, Jesus states: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath "SEEN" the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Key word here is SEEN! As "SEEING", is NOT "cometh unto" the Father? Is it?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak NOT of MYSELF: but the Father that DWELLETH in me, he doeth the works.
Philippians 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the MARK For The PRIZE of the High CALLING of God in Christ Jesus.
John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am THE WAY, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH unto the Father, but by me.
Further on, Jesus states: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath "SEEN" the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Key word here is SEEN! As "SEEING", is NOT "cometh unto" the Father? Is it?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak NOT of MYSELF: but the Father that DWELLETH in me, he doeth the works.
Philippians 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the MARK For The PRIZE of the High CALLING of God in Christ Jesus.
You posted Scriptures. Okay.
John 14:6 I agree that no man will be able to come unto the Father except through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ - but I suspect you are trying to push some Calvinism at me. Is it Jesus that does the electing now?
John 14:9 is saying that Jesus Christ is the express image of the Father (Hebrews 1:1-3) and that Philip could see the Father in Jesus. Again, Calvinism here? Really?
Philippians 3:13, 14 is speaking of rewards for faithful service. Paul was called to be a minister of the Gospel. I know, you see election in there somehow. Good luck with that.
As a matter of fact, you did not state that what I posted was "foolish!" You posted my post was gibberish!
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Confessing Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior, and being baptised, is the way to "see" the "Kingdom (government) of God."
But, then?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be born of WATER (breath of life from woman/FLESH) and OF the SPIRIT (breath of life, AND Holy breath of life), he cannot ENTER INTO the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
This is the reason why the "vetting process", seems SO Irrational, when one tries explaining to people. Especially ones' "preserved" in Christ!
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Confessing Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior, and being baptised, is the way to "see" the "Kingdom (government) of God."
But, then?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be born of WATER (breath of life from woman/FLESH) and OF the SPIRIT (breath of life, AND Holy breath of life), he cannot ENTER INTO the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
This is the reason why the "vetting process", seems SO Irrational, when one tries explaining to people. Especially ones' "preserved" in Christ!
1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace (the special endowment for my task) of God bestowed on me,
like a skillful architect and master builder I laid [the] foundation,
and now another [man or woman] is building upon it.
But let each [one] be careful how one builds upon it,
11 for no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is [already] laid,
which is Jesus Christ (The Messiah, The Anointed One).
12 But if anyone builds upon The Foundation, whether it be with
gold, silver, precious stones,
wood, hay, straw,
13 the work of each [one] will become [plainly, openly] known;
for the day [of Christ] will disclose and declare it,
because it will be revealed with fire,
and the fire will test and critically appraise
the character and worth of the work each person has done.
14 If the work which any person has built on this Foundation
[any product of his (or her) efforts whatever] survives [this test],
he (or she) will get his (or her) reward.
15 But if any person's work is burned up [under the test],
he (or she) will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his (or her) reward],
though he (or she) will be saved,
but only as [one who has passed] through fire.
***What is the most important fact in that passage? How do you know that verse 12 is about true Christians?
John 10
Jesus Christ said,
14 I am The Shepherd Who cares for the sheep.
I know My sheep just as The Father knows Me.
And My sheep know Me just as I know The Father.
I give My life for these sheep.
15 Even as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father.
And I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep too.
They are not in this flock here.
I must lead them also.
They will listen to My voice.
In the future there will be one flock and one Shepherd.
***What are the probable priorities of the two types of Gospel believers?
How can you improve in your use of time so that you are building more on the foundation of Jesus Christ?
Yes! And No! And you would "realize" the same thing, if you weren't so steeped in "traditions of men!" which makes void the Word of God!
You would come to realize that a very long time ago, you stood WITH God! In fighting and warring against those seeking in exalting a throne ABOVE the MOST HIGH!
Until, or unless this realization comes to pass within you? Everything anyone posts concerning election and predestination? You will not understand!
Does this mean that those who do realize this, are wrong? Or, in "spiritual jeopardy?"
Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
You would come to realize that a very long time ago, you stood WITH God! In fighting and warring against those seeking in exalting a throne ABOVE the MOST HIGH!
Until, or unless this realization comes to pass within you? Everything anyone posts concerning election and predestination? You will not understand!
Does this mean that those who do realize this, are wrong? Or, in "spiritual jeopardy?"
Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So you are a Mormon then? I believed that nonsense about a pre-existence where I was once an angel that followed Lucifer out of heaven but now have been born as a man that I might find a path to return to Joseph Smith. Yawn.
Why don't you people admit up front what you are instead of slithering in under the cracks.
Why don't you people admit up front what you are instead of slithering in under the cracks.
I go with the great commission.
Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission) AMPC (Amplified Classic)
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission) AMPC (Amplified Classic)
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
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***The Apostle Paul wrote a lot of verses that indicated Holy Spirit urged discerning/warning judging.
And check what 1 Corinthians 6:1-11 says.
I look for the good in others and in churches,
but The Holy Spirit helps me to realize wrongs and sins to at least do intercessory prayer about.
Sometimes I have to exhort or even rebuke.
Some have responded with a rebuke against me accusing me of condemn judging.
I have never done the just mentioned.
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” has been misused so much by individuals
who don't want to repent towards Christ-likeness righteousness
and some of the famous Christian leaders have threatened those who oppose their teaching and life styles.
Constructive criticism is not a judging sin.
If one looks at the context of Matthew 7:1, he or she will discover that it does not apply
to what is said above about judging
and to the following statements.
True Christians will not condemn judge, but they will discern right and wrong judge so they
can do proper intercessory prayer
and do Holy Spirit urged exhortation or rebuke as
Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, and many Christian leaders have done in the past.
For the much needed church discipline to take place the discerning judging needs to be done.
Also the Bible is full of warnings about unrighteous actions and teaching being done
and such require discerning judging.
There is too much tolerance of wrongs in the Christian churches and in society.
But extreme carefulness must be done in the indicated exhorting and warning ministries.
A pastor cannot even do such without making judgments
about what Scripture to teach and how to teach it.