Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine
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He's correct. Hebrews is written to exhort believers to stay under the redemption of Christ. They were being persecuted by the Jews. Hebrews is written extensively about the sufficiency found only in Christ. And the author shows systematically why Christ is the fulfillment of the old system. Thus if you look for "another sacrifice" there remains no forgiveness for sins. The destruction of the temple in 70 AD was the fulfillment of this reality. There no longer remains a temple to sacrifice at because Christ alone is the Truth, Way and Life. No other way to God. He is our High Priest. And the Lamb that every other sacrifice pointed towards.
My claim is spot on, your tactic was lame. Using the defense (tactic really) that you used is to show oneself unacquainted with Scripture, Ralph~.
So does that mean you're a gnostic?Here are what some WHO KNEW THE APOSTLES taught about eternal security...a concept that DID NOT exist....
Ignatius, A.D. 110
Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16)
Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate. (Letter to the Trallians 12)
Pseudo-Barnabas, A.D. 120 - 130
We take earnest heed in these last days, for the whole time of your faith will profit you nothing unless now, in this wicked time, we also withstand coming sources of danger, as befits the sons of God. (Letter of Barnabas 4)
Each person will receive as he has done. If he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him. If he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease as those who are the called ones, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince should acquire power over us and thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. Consider this all the more, brothers, when you reflect and see that after such great signs and wonders were done in Israel, they were abandoned. Let us beware, lest we be found as it is written, "Many are called, but few are chosen" [Matt. 22:14]. (Letter of Barnabas 4)
Let us, then, repent with our whole heart, that none of us may perish needlessly. For if we have commands and [if we] engage in withdrawing from idols and instructing others, then how much more should we not perish because we already know God.
Let us therefore help one another and lift up the weak in what is good so that all of us may be saved, convert, and admonish one another.
Let us not only seem to believe and pay attention when we are admonished by the elders, but let us also remember the commandments of the Lord when we return home. Let us not be allured away by worldly lusts, but let us draw near to one another very often in order to try to make progress in the Lord's commands. In this way, when we all have the same mind, we will be gathered together for life, for the Lord said, "I come to gather all nations and languages."
This refers to the day of his appearing, when he will come and redeem us—each one according to his works. The unbelievers will see his glory and might, and when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprised. They will say, "Woe to us, because you were, and we did not know you, did not believe, and did not obey the elders who clearly explain our salvation."
"Their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh" (Is. 66:24).
He speaks of the great day of judgment, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ.
The righteous will have succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul. They will give glory to God when they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire. They will give glory to their God and say, "There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart." (Second Clement 17)
Justin, c. A.D. 155
If they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God, and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" [Ps. 32:2]. That is, he repents of his sins so that he may receive remission of them from God. It is not as you deceive yourselves, along with others who resemble you in this, and say that even though they are sinners, but know God, the Lord will not imput sin to them. We have as proof of this the one fall of David, which happened because of his boasting, which was forgiven when he mourned and wept in the way it is written. If even to such a man no remission was granted before repentance and only when this great king, anointed one, and prophet mourned and conducted himself as it is written, then how can the impure and utterly abandoned, if they do not weep, do not mourn, and do not repent, entertain the hope that the Lord will not impute sin to them? (Dialogue with Trypho 141)
Hermas, c. A.D. 160
"He that does not know God," [the angel of repentance] answered, "and practices evil, receives a certain chastisement for his wickedness, but he that has known God ought not to do evil anymore but to do good. If, accordingly, when he ought to do good, he does evil, does he not appear to do greater evil than the one who does not know God? For this reason, those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death, but those who have known God and have seen his mighty works and still continue in evil shall be chastised doubly and shall die forever. This is the way the Church of God will be purified." (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:8)
Irenaeus, A.D. 183 - 186
We … ought ourselves to fear, lest by chance, after the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from his kingdom. (Against Heresies, IV:27:2)
[Irenaeus quotes 1 Cor. 6:9-10 here about inheriting the kingdom of God.] It was not to those who are outside that he said these things, but to us, lest we should be cast out of the kingdom of God by doing any such thing. He proceeds to say, "And truly such were you, but you are washed, but you are sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" [1 Cor. 6:11]. And just as [under the old covenant], those who led vicious lives and led other people astray were condemned and cast out, so also even now the offending eye is plucked out, and the foot and the hand, lest the rest of the body perish in the same way. (Against Heresies, IV:27:4)
Basil, c. A.D. 362
Vain then is the labor of the righteous man, and free from blame is the way of the sinner if a change come to pass, and the former turn from the better to the worse and the latter from the worse to the better. So we hear from Ezekiel ... when he says, "If the righteous man turns away and commits iniquity, I will not remember the righteousness which he did before. In his sin he shall die." And so, too, about the sinner: if he turns away from his wickedness and does what is right, he shall live. (Epistle 42 as numbered by The Ante-Nicene Fathers, published by Eerdmans and Hendrickson.)
source: new advent.org
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And Martin Luther said:
[The Lord] cautions his Christians against becoming secure, so that the day of his coming might not come upon them unawares. … We must not become like those secure and ungodly people who crowd their hearts with surfeiting [excess] and concerns about earning a livelihood. … When they are at their securest … they will suddenly be laid low and burn with a fire that will never be extinguished. (The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, vol. V, p. 38, brackets mine)
That's the way things will be, says Christ, when Judgment Day nears. The whole world will act secure. Don't let this disturb you. Christ admonishes, do not follow them; do not do what they are doing; cling to me. Nor be afraid; keep your head high, and see to it that, when I come down from heaven, I shall be able to find you! … But those who overload their hearts and show no concern for Judgment Day will find that death has suddenly overtaken them. The fellow who frolics and dances merrily with his wench, will then suddenly find himself flat on his face, and, while his next-door neighbor counts his shekels of silver and gold, he will suddenly be knocked down with his money bags and all. …
For this reason Christ says to his disciples and Christians, Be on your guard so that I do not find you in this rowdy crowd. When they say, Nothing to worry about, at that very moment they will be lying flat on their faces. (The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, vol. V, p. 40-41)
1530
God will avenge and severely punish the haughty rebellion of all who misuse the gospel, rich or poor. Would to God, that the punishment could be delayed for a while by our prayers! … Rebellion is so great and widespread that God will have to put a stop to it. No amount of warning or admonition, pleading or begging, no amount of threats or punishments by either spiritual or secular authority will do any good; God himself will have to step in with avenging judgment to punish and put an end to such wickedness. (Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, vol. VII, "Twenty-Second Sunday after Trinity," par. 31)
1533
True, it is difficult to do good and in turn receive nothing but ingratitude. Remember, however, that you are a Christian, and if you wish to remain a Christian, you will have to exert yourself more earnestly than the non-Christian, as exemplified by our Father in heaven. That is a promise. If you in your heart forgive him who has offended you, so in turn you will be forgiven by God and men. (The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, vol. VI, pp. 273-74)
source: https://www.christian-history.org/martin-luther-eternal-security-quotes.html
As you can see, those that new Jesus and were taught by Him (the Apostles) and in turn taught others (those above) do NOT agree with you or the concept of OSAS.
And Martin Luther said:
[The Lord] cautions his Christians against becoming secure, so that the day of his coming might not come upon them unawares. … We must not become like those secure and ungodly people who crowd their hearts with surfeiting [excess] and concerns about earning a livelihood. … When they are at their securest … they will suddenly be laid low and burn with a fire that will never be extinguished. (The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, vol. V, p. 38, brackets mine)
That's the way things will be, says Christ, when Judgment Day nears. The whole world will act secure. Don't let this disturb you. Christ admonishes, do not follow them; do not do what they are doing; cling to me. Nor be afraid; keep your head high, and see to it that, when I come down from heaven, I shall be able to find you! … But those who overload their hearts and show no concern for Judgment Day will find that death has suddenly overtaken them. The fellow who frolics and dances merrily with his wench, will then suddenly find himself flat on his face, and, while his next-door neighbor counts his shekels of silver and gold, he will suddenly be knocked down with his money bags and all. …
For this reason Christ says to his disciples and Christians, Be on your guard so that I do not find you in this rowdy crowd. When they say, Nothing to worry about, at that very moment they will be lying flat on their faces. (The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, vol. V, p. 40-41)
1530
God will avenge and severely punish the haughty rebellion of all who misuse the gospel, rich or poor. Would to God, that the punishment could be delayed for a while by our prayers! … Rebellion is so great and widespread that God will have to put a stop to it. No amount of warning or admonition, pleading or begging, no amount of threats or punishments by either spiritual or secular authority will do any good; God himself will have to step in with avenging judgment to punish and put an end to such wickedness. (Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, vol. VII, "Twenty-Second Sunday after Trinity," par. 31)
1533
True, it is difficult to do good and in turn receive nothing but ingratitude. Remember, however, that you are a Christian, and if you wish to remain a Christian, you will have to exert yourself more earnestly than the non-Christian, as exemplified by our Father in heaven. That is a promise. If you in your heart forgive him who has offended you, so in turn you will be forgiven by God and men. (The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, vol. VI, pp. 273-74)
source: https://www.christian-history.org/martin-luther-eternal-security-quotes.html
As you can see, those that new Jesus and were taught by Him (the Apostles) and in turn taught others (those above) do NOT agree with you or the concept of OSAS.
You have a real hard time controlling your tongue, don't you, FranC? James 1:26. And full of slander as well. Wonder what such behavior means?
As for your quotes, those have to do with not persevering in the faith and showing ones self to not be truly converted. But cut and paste away, FranC.
This is what you posted in the reply in post no. 345:
I highly doubt you'd listen, you've already convinced yourself your interpretations are correct and that salvation is up to man in either losing it, maintaining it, or gaining it.
Since you do not agree that it's up to man to lose, maintan, or gain salvation...
it must surely mean that you believe GOD does it ALL.
Did I misunderstand you?
Do you agree instead that MAN is responsible for losing, maintaining, or gaining salvation?
That would be nice to hear.
I'm sure that some reading along will understand the ECF that I posted,,,all of whom were taught by the Apostles themselves that eternal security is not found anywhere in the N.T.
The truth is hard to digest.
After your slander, Gnostic accusations FranC? I'll pass on answering you. Your tongue gives you away.
Sounds like you don't agree with Jesus.
Personally, I'm not ready to debate with Him.
HE said in Luke 8:13 that they BELIEVED for a while.
We still don't know what BELIEVE means...
AMEN.....why is it so hard to see this context and truth.......For salvation to be able to be lost or forfeit in any way, the words which apply unto salvation MUST be ignored, swept under the table, denied, and rejected. The same words that contradict a salvation that can be lost, forfeit and or revoked are as follows...
a. SAVED to the UTTERMOST
b. The gifts of GOD are IRREVOCABLE
c. The words used to describe the life given in salvation is eternal, everlasting and without end.
d. The word used to describe the JUSTIFICATION (rendered innocent) in Christ is ETERNALLY
e. The word used to describe our positional sanctification is Christ is Eternal
f. The sealing in CHRIST by the HOLY SPIRIT is UNTO the DAY OF REDEMPTION
g. We are KEPT "saved" by the POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH
h. Christ is the source of said saving faith <--HE SAID HE WILL finish the good work of faith he began in us
and on and on and on!
JESUS must not only FAIL, but be found inept and untruthful for salvation to be lost or forfeit in any way shape or form. HE SAID...
I WILL never LEAVE thee or FORSAKE THEE
I WILL LOSE NOTHING...but RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY
NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE OF GOD
AS the good shepherd he will LEAVE the 99 to find the one that wanders off
I DO apologize.
It sounded like the only persons you could post were gnostics....
I merely asked, very politely, that you do not use gnostic quotes since they are not accepted as traditinal christianity.
AND context dictates the following....
ROMANS speaks to being justified before GOD
James speaks to a man's claim of faith being justified before MEN by our works
The contrast in JAMES is is compared to a mere belief in GOD and was written to the JEWISH STRANGERS scattered abroad....even today the JEWS BELIEVE IN GOD <--as the demons do and tremble (James), yet most have no SAVING FAITH......
JAMES does not teach a faith/works blend salvation...........regardless of any and all that attempt to make that leap....it is not there!
Thanks.
What do you make of this?
In what spiritual state are those who have fallen away?
Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Or flatulence in disguise.....if you get my drift...........----->PH---!
James seems to disagree.
James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Yep..he does disagree with your view and aligns perfectly with my view.......
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law.
i have heard some say that Hebrews was written to believers who had fled Jerusalem when the temple was destroyed, who were considering whether that they should go back, and try to rebuild, even to restart the sacrifices, continuing in the law of Moses as they had before the advent of Christ. it actually makes a certain sense, what the content of the epistle is, if this is is indeed the context. it's not something i feel qualified to come to a conclusion about tho