Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[eternally-gratefull]

God is MY FATHER, I am God's son!!

Our Father who art in heaven... = God is our FATHER!!

I am able to go BOLDLY to the throne of MY FATHER!!

You go right ahead and just be a free loader by GRACE (what a lousy excuse)(like an alcoholic saying, it was just only 1 sip), I am a child of God and therefore am ACCOUNTABLE!!

Why do you reject grace?

Grace came at a price. A price I can not pay, if I could pay it, Christ came and suffered all those things in vein, why do you think you can pay them?

 

[preacher4truth]

So, you are claiming that Heb.6:4-6 does not mean what it plainly says?
(I noticed that you did not address any of it in your tirade -- even deleted it from my quote)

This is a discussion forum. Are you declaring that my presence here is unwelcome?
(as indicted by your conspiracy theory about me)

Nope you're welcome here as a brother. The thing is you dont believe in perseverance of the saints, thus my response.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not every hypothesis is wrong. They point to something that might be right.

Are you agreeing that salvation can be lost due to apostacy?

I think Hebrews 6:4-6 says that God has the final say.
I agree that no one (but God) can take away our salvation. Nothing we can do to lose it.
And this only under the worst circumstance. And it's God's call, not ours. In some cases it is
impossible for those who have fallen away to be brought back to repentance. Thus lost.

No, because if that was true, JOhn got it wrong, and hebrews and John are in contradiction of each other, thus one of those two authors are in error. Who could we trust?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, I believe apostasy is real.
However, we cannot as a matter of our own will lose our salvation.
God decides when we have gone too far and cannot be brought back.

How could we go to far away, if we can not even come close enough to ave ourselves?

This makes no sense.


Its like saying your a slave on tge other side of the fence, you have to enter in in order to bemade free. It does not matter if your within a few feet of the fence or a thousand miles away, your still a slave in need of freedom. (And the fence is inpenitrable by the way, No one can enter the fence, they have to be brought in by someone on the other side, which in our case, they must be brought in by God himself) so in reality even the person a few feet away is without hope. Apart from God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's dangerous business, declaring whole churches or denominations to be our enemy.

Declaring a fact is dangerous?

It is more dangerous to think every church or denomination leads people to christ with the truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 Corinthians 6:1

...For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4

Thanks for showing us Gods truth

These people were never saved, They came in as outsiders, who were already condemned, in order to try to destroy the church. Trying to get others to deny God, which was occurring in many churches in Judes day, thus his warning..

 

[posthuman]

if His crucifixion and resurrection truly saved me, if He has truly renewed me - if it is true that by one sacrifice He perfected forever the ones He is making holy - then can it be possible that i be renewed a second time? can it be possible for Him to be crucified a second time?

what makes that impossible?
is it that it makes His once-and-for-all work of no effect?

i am wondering about Hebrews 6, what it means for someone to think to 'crucify Him again' -- whether it doesn't mean, a person thinks they have lost salvation, meaning they believe He must be crucified a second time in order to bring them back again. in other words, believing that His first and final work has been made ineffectual and must be redone.

how many impossible things are there in Hebrews 6:4-6 and what is impossible about each one?

 

[dcontroversal]

if His crucifixion and resurrection truly saved me, if He has truly renewed me - if it is true that by one sacrifice He perfected forever the ones He is making holy - then can it be possible that i be renewed a second time? can it be possible for Him to be crucified a second time?

what makes that impossible?
is it that it makes His once-and-for-all work of no effect?

i am wondering about Hebrews 6, what it means for someone to think to 'crucify Him again' -- whether it doesn't mean, a person thinks they have lost salvation, meaning they believe He must be crucified a second time in order to bring them back again. in other words, believing that His first and final work has been made ineffectual and must be redone.

how many impossible things are there in Hebrews 6:4-6 and what is impossible about each one?

AMEN..............

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if His crucifixion and resurrection truly saved me, if He has truly renewed me - if it is true that by one sacrifice He perfected forever the ones He is making holy - then can it be possible that i be renewed a second time? can it be possible for Him to be crucified a second time?

what makes that impossible?
is it that it makes His once-and-for-all work of no effect?

i am wondering about Hebrews 6, what it means for someone to think to 'crucify Him again' -- whether it doesn't mean, a person thinks they have lost salvation, meaning they believe He must be crucified a second time in order to bring them back again. in other words, believing that His first and final work has been made ineffectual and must be redone.

how many impossible things are there in Hebrews 6:4-6 and what is impossible about each one?

Amen,

Again, it may be hard for us to understand, but to the jew at the time who had the law as their primary belief system, it was not hard at all.

The sacrifice had to be continually offered for those who had sinned (fallen away)

If one could fall away (if it were possible) and Jesus is the only sacrifice which mattered (as the church proclaimed) then if one fell away, Jesus himself would have to be sacrificed in order to bring back the one whose sin his first sacrifice did not cover. Thus saying one could fall away (which the jews were taught from birth concerning the law) would put christ to open shame, it declaires his sacrifice was not enough.

 

[Argueless]

Thanks for showing us Gods truth
These people were never saved, They came in as outsiders, who were already condemned, in order to try to destroy the church. Trying to get others to deny God, which was occurring in many churches in Judes day, thus his warning..

Yes, God is true, thus He said thru Titus;
...They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.

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[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, God is true, thus He said thru Titus;
...They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.

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• 
  

Yes,

Just because someone claims they know God and are christian, or disciples of Christ, does not mean they are Gods true children at all.

 

[Sketch]

I make that the author is making a plee to jews tryign to return to law.

It is impossible for those who have come to christ, IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them (According to the law they could be renewed) As the verses following says, The earth brings rain. Yes, they may be near to being cursed because they become prodigals, tbut they are not cursed, as aul said in 1 cor. They will still be saved, even though as through fire.

Why would you LIMIT a falling away to be back under the law?
I don't think that is what this is about at all.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

[Sketch]

You aint seen nothing yet! There are those who believe that sinner's prayer or calling out to the Lord is WORKS salvation. You heard me right.
I lie not i can provide the evidence if asked.

Some hyper-dispensationalists even say Romans 10:9 is NOT for christians but to jews. (Becuase of what Paul says in verse 1) and that the gospel for us today is in Romans 3:21-25. (Even 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is wrong according to some because it doesnt mention the blood of Jesus)

Its crazy all kinds of weird doctrines people come up with. I've seen and heard it all.

I bet soon its going to be just universalism. No belief, just exist and you're in!
Now dont get me wrong I would LOVE for universalism to be true, but the scriptures unfortunately dont witness to that.

Yes, there seems to be a whole spectrum of positions on this. (a gray area)
And most of them make it a black and white issue.

 

[rlm68]

Remember that I am not opposed to sin confession for transparency (though He already sees all things). To suggest we must seek forgiveness from God after having repented and believed in the Son of God, suggests that we haven't fully comprehended the work of Christ.

We repent. Days pass. We sin. The sin I just committed IS NOT PART of the sins I confessed to when I repented. So, in order to be saved I had to repent of ALL and CURRENT SINS at that moment. That HAS NOTHING to do with future sins, only that I now have a promise that if I am sincere and repent I will be forgiven.

I took all of your scripture references and NOTHING explains when I sin today it goes back to the day I repented.

That is some straight B.S. from the Adversary you got going on there

 

[Sketch]

Not really

2 cor 11: 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

People make it complicated when they make it complicated by their belief systems,



An Apostle can not lie either. If An apostle says people who left the church and are now anti-christ (reject christ in unbelief) were never saved, they were never saved

Anther aostle can not say, well. John was wrong, he did not have the whole picture (john was there from the begining by the way) this is how it really is.

You use the scripture to interpret scripture. If your belief system makes two authors contradict each other, Or one author contradict himself in two different passages, Something is wrong with your interpretation. Study and find the belief which brings the two things in harmony, then you will find truth, Keep them apposed. And you will remain in a complicated mire which is not based in truth. And have fallen from the simplicity which is in christ.

What do you make of this?

1 Corinthians 3:14-15
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Sketch]

Nope you're welcome here as a brother. The thing is you dont believe in perseverance of the saints, thus my response.

I said nothing about the "perseverance of the saints". How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[Sketch]

No, because if that was true, JOhn got it wrong, and hebrews and John are in contradiction of each other, thus one of those two authors are in error. Who could we trust?

We are in constant need to balance one scripture against another.
The Apostle Paul says it is by grace we are saved through faith, not by works.
James say faith without works is dead. (one example)

 

[Sketch]

Declaring a fact is dangerous?

It is more dangerous to think every church or denomination leads people to christ with the truth.

So, are you declaring YOUR church as the only "true" church?

 

[rlm68]

This whole time I have had one aim.
To address the claim that we, through an act, or acts, of our own free will can lose our salvation. To this point I say: (again)
We cannot undo what only God can do in the first place. Meaning...
We are not saved as a result of our own self-efforts, nor can we revoke our salvation as a result of our own self-efforts.
God saved us, only God can revoke our salvation.

Several posters have swept Heb.6:4-6 aside claiming it does not mean what it plainly says due to the context.
I don't think context should be used as a way to dismiss what a scripture clearly says on it's own. Context should be used to
clarify that which is unclear, not to sidestep what is plainly stated. Let's take a closer look at what it says on its own.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who is this scripture talking about?
- those who have once been enlightened
- those who have tasted the heavenly gift
- those who have shared in the Holy Spirit
- those who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age.
This is obviously speaking of the saved.

What is it saying about them?
- It is impossible for those (saved individuals) to be brought back to repentance.

Why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance?
- To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What is the message?
This is a difficult passage, but it says what it says.
The most critical question in this scripture is defining what "fallen away" means.
Or more specifically, to what degree. In a sense, we fall away every time we sin.
But we know we have a remedy to restore fellowship through confession of sin and repentance.

So, the big question here is, to what degree can one fall away to which there is no remedy?
My answer is that, God only knows. It is in his hands, not ours to decide.
There is a line to cross, and we don't know where it is. Only God knows.
God's will is not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I am not claiming since I was saved, grew closer to God, and now live every day in Hope of His return that I would leave God. To me, to leave God now would be stupid since I know of His goodness and love for me and all of His promises.

But, circumstance can arise in anyone's life and they can turn that back on to blame God for it. And that little seed planted can grow and eventually separate a person from God. God made promises. But we must be the ones to believe, obey, and follow God to be rewarded of His promises. And if we choose not believe any more, obey, or follow God...we have made the decision for God to cut us off!!

Your definition sounds like an excuse. It's all in God's hand. No, God's hand is His promise. But we must fit the conditions (to believe, follow, be saved) in order to receive His promises.

STOP putting this on God!!

I bet you have an excuse for everything you do in life....**edited**

 

[preacher4truth]

Man, it just seems so Ralphy~ in this thread...