Church is it even biblical

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You're making the claim that since the 1st century there has never been a genuine teacher or preacher.

I think we could find any number of flaws in this proposition in a variety of ways: Biblically, historically, and philosophically.

Since I have sincerely never heard of any other Christian holding this view, I can't imagine why I'd bother debating it.



...
lol yes, while he's simultaneously teaching us.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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well Noose, why exactly are you here on CC in the BDF meeting with other Christians?
for what? what's the reason for your presence on the website and in the discussion threads?


:confused:
I'm here because it is an assembly, is it a church?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Why then did the apostles establish teachers, preachers, etc.
If that prophecy was about the new covenant in Christ, that would make the teaching of Paul, Peter, James, and John about establishing churches through out the world wrong, and thus as false prophets all their teachings wrong which would destroy the foundations of the new covenant. So clearly as Isreal rejected Christ, this promise to them is still as of yet to be fullfilled as many of the prophecies are still yet to come.
How is it yet to be fulfilled and Paul is saying it is fulfilled?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I'm not a teacher and no one here is my student yet i must speak because i have a mouth.
speak in order to accomplish what?

are you trying to transmit or communicate information/understanding? then it seems to me you're by definition, teaching, right? technically i'm doing the same thing, and so is everyone here who puts a comment with the purpose to edify. if you don't agree with that, feel free to 'teach' me a better definition of what a 'teacher' is, so we can be on the same page in our mutual conversations :)
i don't think we have a specified, mutually agreed-upon definition so i presumed to posit one of my own here, is all
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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The greatest world dtribulation every, the prophet of the beast, the beast and the two prophets of ÇGod......the Two wfitnesses…..these I await should I live to those times...……….Of course the then return of our Lord and Savior, Jesus, Yeshua, amen.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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When is the new covenant ratified?
IMO, the new covenant was for the end times "and this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached to all nations as a witness, and then the end shall come..."

During the apostles time, the new covenant was not ratified until they finished witnessing to all the nations and until John penned the following, that specific moment:

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
This Holy Book, the Bible was written for us. It is our protection from the "ministers of Righteousness" that deceived Eve.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Whose Word's? Is He not the Word of God which became Flesh?

Duet. 30:
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Christ) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

REv. 22:
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Rev. 18:
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


Keep up the "good" Work Noose :)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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speak in order to accomplish what?

are you trying to transmit or communicate information/understanding? then it seems to me you're by definition, teaching, right? technically i'm doing the same thing, and so is everyone here who puts a comment with the purpose to edify. if you don't agree with that, feel free to 'teach' me a better definition of what a 'teacher' is, so we can be on the same page in our mutual conversations :)
If everyone teaches, who listens?
Some have come to learn and in the process also test the spirits.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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speak in order to accomplish what?

are you trying to transmit or communicate information/understanding? then it seems to me you're by definition, teaching, right? technically i'm doing the same thing, and so is everyone here who puts a comment with the purpose to edify. if you don't agree with that, feel free to 'teach' me a better definition of what a 'teacher' is, so we can be on the same page in our mutual conversations :)
You have answered your own point here. We come to eshort and edify, but this does not make any teachers...though I do believe some of you are just that.

I like to share what I have come to have determined and what I believe........not very successfully I may add, but it is gratifying to know I have done something no matter how small the contribution. All from all for the glory of God, amen.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
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speak in order to accomplish what?

are you trying to transmit or communicate information/understanding? then it seems to me you're by definition, teaching, right? technically i'm doing the same thing, and so is everyone here who puts a comment with the purpose to edify. if you don't agree with that, feel free to 'teach' me a better definition of what a 'teacher' is, so we can be on the same page in our mutual conversations :)
i don't think we have a specified, mutually agreed-upon definition so i presumed to posit one of my own here, is all
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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Context is everything. When the time of no one needing to teach their brethren of the Lord comes into play, is when the Lord gathers His faithful from the four winds.

Jeremiah 31:1 At the same time, saith the Lord, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

Jeremiah 31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
How is it yet to be fulfilled and Paul is saying it is fulfilled?
Where does Paul say that the 34th verse of the 31st chapter of Jeremiah is fulfilled? There are many things yet fulfilled. Like the thousand year reign of Christ as described in the revelation of John. And I am willing to say that the passage in question is likely during that time. Especially if you read the whole passage in context.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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In the time of the apostles they would have called it synagogue.
The church was first brought to light in the 16th century by Catholics and king james.
Jesus called his gathering Eclesia.
The church is a building we are a temple.
The Catholics built the greatest empire in the world. Killing those who disagreed. And stealing untold billions of dollars from those who wanted to know god.
Then there are the multitude of denominations with no fellowship with each other.
Inside. Of each group there is the hierarchy.
Fellowship amongst saints happen at the grass roots level. I e boots on the ground.
To summarize church is not of God, for he wanted a relationship with us and each other.
That is surely lacking in most church.
Hope your happy I'm back
You seem to be ignoring the different meanings of the word church.
Church is a building.
Church is a group of people in a congregation believing in Jesus.
Church is the body of Christians as a whole.
Church is a service.

You seem to be ignoring we speak modern English not older versions of English.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Where does Paul say that the 34th verse of the 31st chapter of Jeremiah is fulfilled? There are many things yet fulfilled. Like the thousand year reign of Christ as described in the revelation of John. And I am willing to say that the passage in question is likely during that time. Especially if you read the whole passage in context.
Heb 10:
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’ ” a
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,

and I will write them on their minds.” b
17Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” c
18And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
This is the work of Satan, you know that without the corporate body of Christ working together through out the world, people in remote places will never know the gospel of Jesus Christ. The churches finance and support humanitarian efforts through out the world bringing the message of the Gospel and alleviating human suffering. The effort to dissuade people from attending and supporting leaves those destitute with out hope. Now I'm done until you repent and turn to Christ.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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So let's imagine, Jesus dies and His spirit is resurrected and the body remains in the tomb. What Gospel/ How was the gospel to be preached?
If you tell the people "Jesus of Nazareth died and was resurrected..." what evidence will you give them so that they believe the gospel? they will all tell you "His body still lie in the tomb"

The bodily resurrection of Jesus had to be to fulfill the prophesies but mainly as evidence, otherwise the bible says Jesus resurrected spitually immediately after His death:

Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Sign of Jonah is for a wicked generation.
Scripture does not say anywhere that "Jesus was resurrected spitually (sic) immediately after His death". It says "he gave up his spirit". Nothing about resurrection. It means he died!

As for the sign of Jonah, what is the relevance to my comment? You asked another poster where he got the idea. I responded with a "perhaps". Instead of attempting to refute my comment, how about you actually give it some thought.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Scripture does not say anywhere that "Jesus was resurrected spitually (sic) immediately after His death". It says "he gave up his spirit". Nothing about resurrection. It means he died!
It does.

Matt 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Let's follow logically:
1. Jesus promised the thief to be in paradise that same day- so He was obviously alive that same day
2. Jesus is the first born from resurrection meaning that no one resurrected before Jesus. We know the OT saints were resurrected when Jesus died but there's no way they resurrected ahead of Jesus otherwise Jesus can not be the first born from resurrection.
3. It is written right there (above) that the OT saints were resurrected right after Jesus resurrected v53.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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It does.

Matt 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Let's follow logically:
1. Jesus promised the thief to be in paradise that same day- so He was obviously alive that same day
2. Jesus is the first born from resurrection meaning that no one resurrected before Jesus. We know the OT saints were resurrected when Jesus died but there's no way they resurrected ahead of Jesus otherwise Jesus can not be the first born from resurrection.
3. It is written right there (above) that the OT saints were resurrected right after Jesus resurrected v53.
Here is the flaw in your reasoning, illustrated: "At that moment they went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

It didn't all happen "at that moment".

Next?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
This is the work of Satan, you know that without the corporate body of Christ working together through out the world, people in remote places will never know the gospel of Jesus Christ. The churches finance and support humanitarian efforts through out the world bringing the message of the Gospel and alleviating human suffering. The effort to dissuade people from attending and supporting leaves those destitute with out hope. Now I'm done until you repent and turn to Christ.
Anyone that is to teach or preach the word of God has to be appointed by God physically, if people only think they are qualified, they are certainly going to preach falsehoods and doctrines that are not from God. If mission is to help other people, then it is a worthy course. The reason the church is divided today is because people have appointed themselves to be teachers.

Listen to what Paul says:

1 Tim 1:
3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

These people were not appointed by God and the more they taught, the more they deviated from truth.