“About The Great Tribulation”
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Again you respond with demeaning statements due to your weakness in the Word.
There are numerous criteria in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24 which the generation expounded upon are to witness before the end of the age occurs. None of these have occurred in the first century AD. Realizing this, no one can maintain a faith based on a contradictory to scripture dogmatic perspective. You may say you believe what you believe, but your being aware of the numerous scriptures contradicting your perspective, means your superficial dogmatic faith will fall when the Lord shakes the earth with the upcoming great tribulation.
There are numerous criteria in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24 which the generation expounded upon are to witness before the end of the age occurs. None of these have occurred in the first century AD. Realizing this, no one can maintain a faith based on a contradictory to scripture dogmatic perspective. You may say you believe what you believe, but your being aware of the numerous scriptures contradicting your perspective, means your superficial dogmatic faith will fall when the Lord shakes the earth with the upcoming great tribulation.
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Hello Davenport,
I beg to differ. Consider the following scripture:
"The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night." - Rev.8:12
In the context above both the sun and the moon are mentioned along with the stars, which would infer that the literal stars in view in the context. At the fourth trumpet the sun, moon and stars will be darkened by a third so that the earth will be missing one third of its light both day and night. In addition, there is nothing in the context which would lead the reader to apply a spiritual or symbolic meaning to either the sun, moon or stars. To do so would be to force that interpretation.
Interpreting the book of Revelation as being all symbolic is why people don't understand it. The proper way to read Revelation is that:
"If the plain, literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense."
The problem that we have is that since people have been taught that it is all symbolic, then they apply symbolic meanings to information that is meant to be literal and thereby distort the meanings.
Well, using a little God-given logic, we know that they cannot be literal stars hitting the earth, because that would end things right away, making Revelation a shorter book. You have to remember that in those times, anything besides the sun and moon, would have been considered a star. They didn't have the scientific classifications of asteroids, meteorites, comets, etc. In these times we know that star is like our sun, most of which are even bigger than ours and so John could not be referring to what we know as being a star. Even if our own moon, which doesn't even compare to a literal star, it would destroy the earth even before it collided with us.
As I said in an earlier post, because both the sun and the moon are also mentioned in the context, then John is referring to stars, which would have to be meteorites/asteroids hitting the earths atmosphere. You should be able to discern what is meant via the context. I'm afraid, like so many, you have been taught that Revelation is symbolic and adopted that teaching and fight against the truth.
It is not nonsense, but applying logical thinking. The effort would be to symbolize the scripture. For if you read it at face value, then it says what it means. Below is the scripture:
"When the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters."
I called it an "unknown object" because it is in fact unknown i.e. we don't know what is falling from heaven and contaminating the water. However, we do know that it is coming from outer space. But if you want my personal opinion based on what I have studied, I believe that what John had seen may have been a comet exploding in the earth's atmosphere and here's why: Unlike asteroids, comets are made up of ice, dust and rock. As they continue their courses throughout the solar system, the ice (frozen water) is continually absorbing the sun's radiation. Therefore, if a comet was to enter the earth's atmosphere, it would most likely explode in the upper atmosphere sending down radioactive particles and contaminating any waters that those particles landed in. Then as it states in the scripture, many people will die from drinking the water. Once again, there is no reason to symbolize the meaning.
I beg to differ. Consider the following scripture:
"The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night." - Rev.8:12
In the context above both the sun and the moon are mentioned along with the stars, which would infer that the literal stars in view in the context. At the fourth trumpet the sun, moon and stars will be darkened by a third so that the earth will be missing one third of its light both day and night. In addition, there is nothing in the context which would lead the reader to apply a spiritual or symbolic meaning to either the sun, moon or stars. To do so would be to force that interpretation.
Interpreting the book of Revelation as being all symbolic is why people don't understand it. The proper way to read Revelation is that:
"If the plain, literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense."
The problem that we have is that since people have been taught that it is all symbolic, then they apply symbolic meanings to information that is meant to be literal and thereby distort the meanings.
Well, using a little God-given logic, we know that they cannot be literal stars hitting the earth, because that would end things right away, making Revelation a shorter book. You have to remember that in those times, anything besides the sun and moon, would have been considered a star. They didn't have the scientific classifications of asteroids, meteorites, comets, etc. In these times we know that star is like our sun, most of which are even bigger than ours and so John could not be referring to what we know as being a star. Even if our own moon, which doesn't even compare to a literal star, it would destroy the earth even before it collided with us.
As I said in an earlier post, because both the sun and the moon are also mentioned in the context, then John is referring to stars, which would have to be meteorites/asteroids hitting the earths atmosphere. You should be able to discern what is meant via the context. I'm afraid, like so many, you have been taught that Revelation is symbolic and adopted that teaching and fight against the truth.
It is not nonsense, but applying logical thinking. The effort would be to symbolize the scripture. For if you read it at face value, then it says what it means. Below is the scripture:
"When the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters."
I called it an "unknown object" because it is in fact unknown i.e. we don't know what is falling from heaven and contaminating the water. However, we do know that it is coming from outer space. But if you want my personal opinion based on what I have studied, I believe that what John had seen may have been a comet exploding in the earth's atmosphere and here's why: Unlike asteroids, comets are made up of ice, dust and rock. As they continue their courses throughout the solar system, the ice (frozen water) is continually absorbing the sun's radiation. Therefore, if a comet was to enter the earth's atmosphere, it would most likely explode in the upper atmosphere sending down radioactive particles and contaminating any waters that those particles landed in. Then as it states in the scripture, many people will die from drinking the water. Once again, there is no reason to symbolize the meaning.
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If you believe that, then I would say to you the same thing that I say to everyone who claims that the generation that Jesus was talking about was His own, which is that you need to take English 101 all over again.
Jesus makes a comparison:
Trees blossoming = summer is near
Signs given by Jesus = the end of the age is near
When you interpret Jesus as saying "this generation" as meaning the one He was speaking from, you do away with the need for the signs that He just mentioned, because you have Jesus telling us that the end of the age was going to take place during His generation. In addition to this, you have force all of the signs as taking place, including all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment which take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Everything listed in Revelation 19:11-21 would also have to have taken place in or around 70 AD. But the truth is, we have seen not one of these events.
As I said, the destruction of the temple is not included as being one of the signs of the Lord's immediate return. The signs of the Lord's coming will all take place in that last generation, which will take place in that seven year period, with the setting up of the abomination in the temple marking the middle of the seven years (Dan.9:27). 3 1/2 years after that, the Lord will return to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
Jesus makes a comparison:
Trees blossoming = summer is near
Signs given by Jesus = the end of the age is near
When you interpret Jesus as saying "this generation" as meaning the one He was speaking from, you do away with the need for the signs that He just mentioned, because you have Jesus telling us that the end of the age was going to take place during His generation. In addition to this, you have force all of the signs as taking place, including all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment which take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Everything listed in Revelation 19:11-21 would also have to have taken place in or around 70 AD. But the truth is, we have seen not one of these events.
As I said, the destruction of the temple is not included as being one of the signs of the Lord's immediate return. The signs of the Lord's coming will all take place in that last generation, which will take place in that seven year period, with the setting up of the abomination in the temple marking the middle of the seven years (Dan.9:27). 3 1/2 years after that, the Lord will return to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
The "SEE" then "FLEE" is indeed following the "beginning of birth pangs [plural]" in Matthew 24.
But in Luke 21, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
--"the beginning of birth pangs" = Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11... [but then verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE"]
so...
in Luke 21 the order is not "birth pangs" THEN "SEE" THEN "FLEE," but instead is "SEE [Jeru compassed with armies]" THEN "FLEE" [BEFORE ALL OF THESE--->] "beginning of birth pangs". Completely distinct and wholly different SEQUENCE (not to mention the specific thing they were/are to "SEE" in each)
But in Luke 21, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
--"the beginning of birth pangs" = Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11... [but then verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE"]
so...
in Luke 21 the order is not "birth pangs" THEN "SEE" THEN "FLEE," but instead is "SEE [Jeru compassed with armies]" THEN "FLEE" [BEFORE ALL OF THESE--->] "beginning of birth pangs". Completely distinct and wholly different SEQUENCE (not to mention the specific thing they were/are to "SEE" in each)
Genesis 37:9 refers to the sun, moon, and stars, but as symbols for Joseph's family, which blows out of water your argument that the mention of the sun and moon proves a literal meaning.
Rev 8:12 refers to a third the sun, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars going dark. What absurdity is bouncing around in you head makes you think that's literal? Come on, explain a scenario to me where that could be literal, where one third of the sun is truck and one third of the stars go dark.
The context of Rev 8:12 is seven trumpets. Why would the stars related to the fourth trumpet be literal, but the items related to the other trumpets not be literal? The next trumpet bring a star, fallen from heaven to the earth, given a key to the bottomless pit. Is that a literal star?
The anti-preterist problem is that they insist on taking everything in a dream or vision literally, unless told explicitly by context that it's symbolic. So, in the insane pursuit of literalism of a dream or vision, anti-preterits push one absurdity after another, while hypocritically doing great violence to the literal meaning of biblical text outside of dreams, visions, and figures of speech.
Someone ignorant 2000 years ago might have thought a falling meteor was a falling star. But, even an ignorant person wouldn't think a meteorite is a star until after it was falling. Why would someone ignorant say the stars fell from the sky when all the stars are still visibly there? Besides, I can't agree with you that the Bible says anything out of ignorance.
Falling meteorites are the same thing as a star. No one, knowing what they are, would ever classify them as the same thing.
How many meteors would have to fall from the sky before we can say a third of the stars fell?
You think a third of the population will die from solar radiation absorbed by a comet? It's interesting that the earth bathes directly in the sun's radiation, all the time, yet no one dies from it (other than a few cases of skin cancer), but there will be mass deaths from second-hand solar radiation form a comet? Did you see, even water from springs is contaminated. How would toxins raining down the from sky contaminate spring water?
It's stupid to default to a literal interpretation of the vision of Revelation. But, you don't take it literally, anyway. Revelation speaks of a star and bitter water, but you speak of a comet and radioactivity. Wormwood is a bitter plant. Where does this plant fit into your literal interpretation?
Rev 8:12 refers to a third the sun, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars going dark. What absurdity is bouncing around in you head makes you think that's literal? Come on, explain a scenario to me where that could be literal, where one third of the sun is truck and one third of the stars go dark.
The context of Rev 8:12 is seven trumpets. Why would the stars related to the fourth trumpet be literal, but the items related to the other trumpets not be literal? The next trumpet bring a star, fallen from heaven to the earth, given a key to the bottomless pit. Is that a literal star?
The anti-preterist problem is that they insist on taking everything in a dream or vision literally, unless told explicitly by context that it's symbolic. So, in the insane pursuit of literalism of a dream or vision, anti-preterits push one absurdity after another, while hypocritically doing great violence to the literal meaning of biblical text outside of dreams, visions, and figures of speech.
Someone ignorant 2000 years ago might have thought a falling meteor was a falling star. But, even an ignorant person wouldn't think a meteorite is a star until after it was falling. Why would someone ignorant say the stars fell from the sky when all the stars are still visibly there? Besides, I can't agree with you that the Bible says anything out of ignorance.
Falling meteorites are the same thing as a star. No one, knowing what they are, would ever classify them as the same thing.
How many meteors would have to fall from the sky before we can say a third of the stars fell?
You think a third of the population will die from solar radiation absorbed by a comet? It's interesting that the earth bathes directly in the sun's radiation, all the time, yet no one dies from it (other than a few cases of skin cancer), but there will be mass deaths from second-hand solar radiation form a comet? Did you see, even water from springs is contaminated. How would toxins raining down the from sky contaminate spring water?
It's stupid to default to a literal interpretation of the vision of Revelation. But, you don't take it literally, anyway. Revelation speaks of a star and bitter water, but you speak of a comet and radioactivity. Wormwood is a bitter plant. Where does this plant fit into your literal interpretation?
Here's how I understand the "stars" :
Daniel 8:9-11 -
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. […"and stamped upon them" indicates they were/are not literal heavenly bodies/stars-we-see-in-the-sky]
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
Daniel 8:9-11 -
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. […"and stamped upon them" indicates they were/are not literal heavenly bodies/stars-we-see-in-the-sky]
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
[ 
Do you still believe that Jesus Christ will return before tribulation in the USA?
The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept". (from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Luke 17:26-37
26 “And [just] as it was in the days of Noah,
so will it be in the time of the Son of Man.
27 [People] ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage,
right up to the day when Noah went into the ark,
and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 So also [it was the same] as it was in the days of Lot.
[People] ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 But on the [very] day that Lot went out of Sodom,
it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [them] all.
30 That is the way it will be on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
31 On that day let him who is on the housetop, with his belongings in the house,
not come down [and go inside] to carry them away;
and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back.
32 Remember Lot's wife!
33 Whoever tries to preserve his life will lose it,
but whoever loses his life will preserve and quicken it.
34 I tell you, in that night
there will be two men in one bed;
one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 There will be two women grinding together;
one will be taken and the other will be left.
36 Two men will be in the field;
one will be taken and the other will be left.”
37 Then they asked Him, “Where, Lord?”
He said to them,
“Wherever the dead body is,
there will the vultures {or} eagles be gathered together.”
What is the context of the most popular “secret rapture” pre-Tribulation rapture theory verses in Luke 17:34-35? What time is it really speaking about? Why is judgment indicated in most of the verses when such is not supposed to happen until 7 years after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ according to the pre-Tribulation rapture believers? What does the word “woman” symbolize in the prophesies of Revelation? What could the two pairs of men in verse 34 & 36 symbolize? Check the rapture prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15 for the answer. What do vulture and eagles do with dead animal and human bodies?
Revelation 9:13-18
13 And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,
“Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.”
15 And the four angels were loosed,
which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year,
for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand;
and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision,
and them that sat on them,
having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone;
and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;
and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed,
by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone,
which issued out of their mouths.
1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (written to Christians)
50 Now this I say, brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I show you a mystery:
we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (written to Christians)
16 “For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven
with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
But what do you think would happen when very rough times occur in the USA and Europe before the rapture? Anger against pastors and TV preachers will happen because the End Times theory they promoted was not true. And what does anger cause people (even church attendees) to do? How much teaching about God’s promises and expectations have you heard preached? And isn’t such information very important in challenging situations? How are you using the time of spiritual freedom to do the Great Commission? This time period could end very soon for the whole world.
If you want more information about the End Times concerns, go to Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://www.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a .
6e Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://app.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a
1-10-OT-- Daniel in ETRSF (19 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/65n3gl6j0yjtlholcwj5v1mzs382dfx5
NT-22-- Revelation-- 4th Edition in ETRSF (20 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/fzje4ktn2cp088wr9wkj4z16nplvlerq
01-- 'forever' Bible study tool-- https://app.box.com/s/8iiu7ii3ydqd8j1bf9mfsopcsscl2xfm
01a-- Heaven-- ETRSF (39 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/olilyab3mpxg3isbpjo7c020259nd44l
01b-- death-- ETRSF (18 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/zcmwnbcnoma11m81m1e7183enxhr4p66
NT-22-- Revelation-- 4th Edition in ETRSF (20 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/fzje4ktn2cp088wr9wkj4z16nplvlerq
01-- 'forever' Bible study tool-- https://app.box.com/s/8iiu7ii3ydqd8j1bf9mfsopcsscl2xfm
01a-- Heaven-- ETRSF (39 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/olilyab3mpxg3isbpjo7c020259nd44l
01b-- death-- ETRSF (18 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/zcmwnbcnoma11m81m1e7183enxhr4p66
The end of the age is the end of the age of evil generation the generation of Adam .The end of this world. In Adam all die.
The generation of Christ was fulfilled in the genealogy of Christ is in respect to the righteous generation. In Christ all live forever.
The generation of Christ walk by faith. The evil generation of natural man walks by sight seeking after signs .
The generation of Christ was fulfilled in the genealogy of Christ is in respect to the righteous generation. In Christ all live forever.
The generation of Christ walk by faith. The evil generation of natural man walks by sight seeking after signs .