Speaking in tongues

[presidente]

What we had in part up till the last book. We are lovingly commanded by the last living words inspired in Revelation 22 to not add or subtract from the whole or perfect ) Amen! Amen?

The book of Revelation predicts that two witnesses would prophesy. Apparently, that would happen after the last 'amen' in the book of Revelation.

Open to chapter 1, and you will see John writes,
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

'This prophecy' is the book of Revelation. The end of the book contains a warning against adding to the scroll of the book of Revelation. I am sure the two witnesses will not do that. Prophesying does not mean adding to the book of Revelation or the Bible. There were prophets in the churches mentioned in Acts and I Corinthians who did not add any books or verses to the New Testament.

We still know in part, and you do also. We do not know so much that we all make Paul in the first century seem like a child in his knowledge and understanding. Most of us are still learning from Paul and the other New Testament authors.

 

[VincentG]

When I have read in the book of Acts about people getting filled with the Spirit and speaking it tongues, I got the impression that the Holy Spirit took over in a way even though the text does not specifically say that. When the disciples were filled with the Spirit at Pentecost, I don't believe they had initiated the speaking in tongues. I don't believe they were thinking about how they were going to start speaking in tongues... I think it probably just started to flow from the Spirit and they did not try to quench it. That is just my impression because I was not there and don't know exactly how it was like.

It is one reason I have felt unsure about speaking in tongues myself because when I thought of the bible and people speaking in tongues and my experience, it did not seem to match up because I had to start speaking on purpose for anything to come out. The only exception I have had was when I was asleep or halfway awake and halfway asleep.

yup you can't make yourself speak in tounges its a gift that you get from The Holy Spirit..if it is the gift He wants to give you..you won't know when it's coming till it's upon you.

 

[CS1]

yup you can't make yourself speak in tounges its a gift that you get from The Holy Spirit..if it is the gift He wants to give you..you won't know when it's coming till it's upon you.

So the Holy Spirit controls you and makes you speak or do a gift He gives you? Interesting. Never seen the Holy Spirit in the Word of God force Himself on an unwilling vessel. I guess then none of us can grieve the Holy Spirit because HE will make you do it.

 

[garee]

Sometimes I wonder if you and I are reading the same Bible. 1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that prophecy by the Holy Spirit is an "outward" gift, not merely in the heart. Verse 22 calls prophecy a sign for believers. It baffles me how you can read that and then claim that there are no "sign gifts". Prophecy and tongues are gifts. They are for signs. Therefore they are sign gifts. Case closed!

Signs as gifts or signs as curses?

It would seem your mind is closed as to what prophecy reveals or even what is prophecy? No such thing as sign gifts as evidence a person is with God. But just the opposite .Signs speak of those who rebel refusing to hear God .

Jesus said it a evil generation (natural unconverted man ) that has no faith that does seek after a signs. as the things the eye sees .

None will be given other than the sign of Jonas, the sign of the cross .It has passed.

You mentioned .1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that prophecy by the Holy Spirit is an "outward" gift, not merely in the heart. it is clearly of the heart man looks on the outside. We are to b obey the things of God the unseen .His holy place.

So then not if you read it .When reading it, it says tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe God's word, prophecy ? But rather to them that believe not.T hose who refuse to hear

Verse 22 calls prophecy a sign for thos who believe not the opposite what you offered

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Agreed. I haven't argued that either tongues or prophecy are evidence of anything. Perhaps some Christians hold that belief; I don't.

You are sharing your thoughts about something and not arguing for nothing. Tongues must serve some kind of a purpose as a sign. Signs point to something? The fact you have returned a answer is a sign you have read my requests.

They are a sign as evidence that they believe not prophecy (God's word). The sign seeker makes a noise and say it is evidence they do have the Holy Spirit . Its what we are talking about signs as evidence. Sign as designed to be against those who do not believe God . Gods word prophecy is for those who do believe.

Tongues is not prophecy. We've been over that a dozen times already. "Before he finished the last book" is an interpretation of 1 Cor 13:8 with which I don't agree.

Of course God speaking in other languages other that Hebrew is prophecy .It is how our living God declares his revealed will (prophecy) Moving men to prophesy As in sending out his kingdom of priest (believers) out into the word a preach (prophesy) the revealed good will of God. believer that declare the gospel are prophets. False prophets declare another gospel as traditions of men .

It what you and every one here is doing prophesying declaring the word of God.there is no outward sign for that just a new spirit and a new heart that God can work with .

1 Cor 13:8 inform us they will cease .They have.

That is not in Scripture either. 1 Cor 14:22 says that tongues are for a sign for unbelievers. Tongues are not a sign "against them". The sign is given that they may be convicted and repent

.

They refused to repent by hearing the word of God (prophecy) .It was not a call to repent they already proved they would not.
Even though the Holy Spirit did mock the Jews that mocked Him . yet for all that mocking they not hear me, and therefore repent.

Repenting is hearing and believing. They believed not (no faith)

Not a call to repent. But evidence they will not repent

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 1Corinttian 14:21

Incorrect. Some people have misinterpreted the scriptural passages about tongues and turned it into a "proof" for the filling of the Holy Spirit. Scripture doesn't support that interpretation. However, it is one done by misled Christians, not unbelievers.

Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief (no faith) is.

I think a believer can as a gift repent at the hearing of faith for without that faith of Christ working in us it would be impossible to please him who we cannot see. .As always he must do the first work of giving us ears to hear what the Spirits is saying to the church.

After we hear the words of prophecy then we can turn towards Him and repent. Repentance is a work of God that he works in us and

not of us lest any man boast in false pride.

These verses talk about people who reject Christ. They are not about people who have believed on Him for salvation.

Now we seem to be on the same page. Yes the signs of tongues talks about people who reject Christ. Prophecy as it is written is for those who do believe

It really is worthwhile to consider the context of each verse. It was the unbelieving Pharisees who demanded a sign from Jesus. The Corinthians to whom Paul wrote were zealous believers in Christ who needed guidance.

The sign was not against the zealous believers but those who have "no faith" .They require a sign before they will exercise or work out what they believe (faith )

It is incorrect to take the admonishment from the one situation and apply it to the other.

The admonishment is against those who believe not prophecy but rather chase after the oral traditons of men they call tongues turning what prophecy calls tongues, upside down .

In that way prophecy define the word "tongue" and "stammering lips" and how it is used... not the oral tradition as the things of men

The sign that speak rebellion does not apply those who walk by faith .(No outward sign) God looks upon the heart .

 

[VincentG]

So the Holy Spirit controls you and makes you speak or do a gift He gives you? Interesting. Never seen the Holy Spirit in the Word of God force Himself on an unwilling vessel. I guess then none of us can grieve the Holy Spirit because HE will make you do it.

Geez didn't know you needed an explanation...If you surrendered to the Lord for what he did for you at the cross repent of your sins and be Baptised doing what the Lord commands us to do as Christians ...as stated in the bible..it's up to the Holy Spirit what gifts to give you..remembered you -surrendered- to Him to be as much as we could as Jesus is..though we will fail at times..But Grace will cover a believer ... (Paul laid hands on some believers so that they can receive the Holy Spirit in acts...the core word here is "believers.") so what I said above does not have anything to do with an unbeliever at all..if you chose not to believe and push the Holy Spirit you're committing the unpardonable sin.

 

[Noose]

The sign for unbelievers has to do with 'and yet for all that, they will not hear Me.' The example in the passage is the unlearned or unbeliever coming in and saying 'ye are mad.' There is a little fulfillment of the Isaiah prophesy he quotes when this happens.

As far as the sounds of speaking in tongues go, there is a lot of variety. I have heard speaking in tongues that sounds to me like a real languages. I've got a degree in Linguistics. I studied a bunch of languages in college and gained fluency in one living overseas. I've spent a lot of my life overseas. I've heard speaking in tongues overseas where I did not know if the individual was praying normally in a regional language as opposed to the national language I knew, or if the individual was speaking in tongues until the interpretation was given.

There is also a supernatural character to interpretation of tongues if it is genuine. I know of three people, at least, who have said that they have gotten the interpretation for a tongue and someone else gave it before they spoke it out and it was the same thing. That happens with prophecies, too. I've experienced getting words of knowledge about people, only to hear someone else prophesy the details I've gotten as a part of the prophecy. Of course, there are prophecies that tell details about an individual's life the speaker could not know by natural means. And someone may go to one location and get a prophecy, and go elswhere and be told some of the same things in another prophecy. I've had that happen to me and I have seen that with someone else.

You haven't answered the question. How is tongues a sign to unbelievers?
Like if i'm an unbeliever and come to you, then you talk to me things that i don't understand - how is this a sign to me? how is it supposed to help me?
You seem to believe that God sends signs/miracles to unbelievers to harden their heart more, so that they continue unbelieving. Something is very wrong with your understanding.

 

[presidente]

..if you chose not to believe and push the Holy Spirit you're committing the unpardonable sin.

The Bible does not teach that 'pushing' , resiaring orbquenching the Spirit are unforgivable sins. Paul kicked against the pricks but he was forgiven.

Jesus warned that he who blashphed/spoke against the aspirit would not be forgiven 'in this age or in the age to com'.

 

[presidente]

You haven't answered the question. How is tongues a sign to unbelievers?
Like if i'm an unbeliever and come to you, then you talk to me things that i don't understand - how is this a sign to me? how is it supposed to help me?
You seem to believe that God sends signs/miracles to unbelievers to harden their heart more, so that they continue unbelieving. Something is very wrong with your understanding.

Read the passage catefully. The unbeliever hears tongues and says ye are mad. Why is that?

But he hears prophesying and says God is truly among you.

This is part of Paul's argument as to the imprtance of doing edifying behaviors in church and the superority of prophecy to uninterpreted tongues for edifying the assembly. In general in the New Testament signs testify to the word and it helped many believe. Evrn Thomas believed when He saw evidence of the risen Christ.

Carefully read Paul's argument in I Corinthians 14.

 

[presidente]

Garee

In I Corinthians 14 the way Paul uses the terms ongues and prophesying, he uses them for two different things. Wee can prove this by looking at where e says greater is he whio prophesies than he who speaks in tongues unless he interprets.

Does it make sense to say he wo prophesies is greater than he who prophesies?

 

[presidente]

Garee, if you wrnt to acgurch and they all spoke with tongues would you think they were crazy?

 

[garee]

The book of Revelation predicts that two witnesses would prophesy. Apparently, that would happen after the last 'amen' in the book of Revelation.

Open to chapter 1, and you will see John writes,
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

'This prophecy' is the book of Revelation. The end of the book contains a warning against adding to the scroll of the book of Revelation. I am sure the two witnesses will not do that. Prophesying does not mean adding to the book of Revelation or the Bible. There were prophets in the churches mentioned in Acts and I Corinthians who did not add any books or verses to the New Testament.

We still know in part, and you do also. We do not know so much that we all make Paul in the first century seem like a child in his knowledge and understanding. Most of us are still learning from Paul and the other New Testament authors.

Thanks for the reply. The two witnesses are the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) The word of God. You could say, as it is written with the word it representing the unseen work of God's faithfulness .Called a labor of love or work of faith.

God does not accept the witness of men .His witness as it is written is the highest possible. The two witnesses are represented by the things that were seen . The law of God represented by Moses and the spirit of the law the prophets by Elijah .

Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

I would agree that prophesying does not mean adding to the book of Revelation or the Bible. When we declare his written will we are prophesying .Claiming a person is receiving new prophecy or new revelations does add.

Two kinds of do not add or subtract or subtract . One in Deuteronomy 4 in respect to adding and diminishing the meaning of a word (singular) ,seeing it can change the authors intent. And the other at the end of Prophecy .Do not add to the whole or perfect . Both needed to like a flaming sword (double edged sword) to protect the integrity of the revealed will of God .

 

[garee]

Garee

In I Corinthians 14 the way Paul uses the terms ongues and prophesying, he uses them for two different things. Wee can prove this by looking at where e says greater is he whio prophesies than he who speaks in tongues unless he interprets.

Does it make sense to say he wo prophesies is greater than he who prophesies?

I Corinthians 14 informs us that tongues are a sign for those who refuse to hear prophecy . What you offered does not change the law that God was mocking those who mocked Him bringing his prophecy in many languages. Signs are designed for those who rebel. They have no faith needed to believe it is already established they are atheist.

That portion (I Corinthians 14) is in respect to when new prophecy it was still coming. It is the position that is greater not the person . For what good would it be to speak into the air and no one understand the word of God?

If God is not brining his interpretation in the language they are familiar with then the speaker should not speak.

He was not advocating make a noise and it is evidence of the Holy Spirit as if we rather walked by sight .

The sign reveals those who believe not God because they refuse to hear Him not seen.

 

[CS1]

Geez didn't know you needed an explanation...If you surrendered to the Lord for what he did for you at the cross repent of your sins and be Baptised doing what the Lord commands us to do as Christians ...as stated in the bible..it's up to the Holy Spirit what gifts to give you..remembered you -surrendered- to Him to be as much as we could as Jesus is..though we will fail at times..But Grace will cover a believer ... (Paul laid hands on some believers so that they can receive the Holy Spirit in acts...the core word here is "believers.") so what I said above does not have anything to do with an unbeliever at all..if you chose not to believe and push the Holy Spirit you're committing the unpardonable sin.

no insult needed or arrogant comment. I asked you a question. Pushing the Holy Spirit is not the unpardonable because many do not obey the Holy Spirit and are saved. Unless you beleive one can lose thier salvation? The question was in context to the gift of the Spirit and the Holy Spirit making one do it not of salvation. Thank you for your response .

 

[garee]

Garee, if you wrnt to acgurch and they all spoke with tongues would you think they were crazy?

It could be a convention where many people from different nations get together . But if no one could understand the other person's tongue then everyone would be like a barbarian to the one next to them. The Tower of Babel re-visted.


seing it is the word of God and not the word of men I would think they would need a interpreter.(The Holy Spirit that lived in them) .

If not they would be crazy for trying to understand a language they never heard before. At Pentecost God interpreted the words he put on Peter's tongue into every language that heard his interpretation, the word of God. No one got the interpretation from those around. Its not about being bi-lingo . That can be beneficial today now that God is no longer brining new revelations as prophecy

 

[1ofthem]

I don't think anyone is saying the Holy Spirit is going to make anyone do anything, but what I and a few others are saying is that no one can just do it on their own. It takes the Holy Spirit. If it is not of the Holy Spirit and something you just make up and do for whatever reason then that person is in serious error.

I don't know if it is unpardonable or not, but I for one would not like to be out making the Holy Spirit look bad by getting in myself and making up words and saying it was the Holy Spirit.

I don't know but I've heard by many that it is blasphemy through actions. Saying something, a message or whatever, came through the Holy Ghost when it did not. And since it did not come from the Holy Spirit then you are making the Holy Spirit look bad by accrediting something fake to it.

And it could also cause others not to believe in the gifts...So whether it is unpardonable or not, I don't know, but I do know that it is definitely scary and not something I would ever want to try out and see what the Lord has to say about it... Just saying.

There is a real thing and a fake thing and Christians need to live in a way that they know the real from the fake and make sure that it is of the Holy Ghost before they do it. And if it is the Holy Ghost then they won't have to sit back and make up any words for it because it's got the words and we can't make them up. It is a gift of the Holy Spirit not of our own selves and our own minds....

 

[Noose]

Read the passage catefully. The unbeliever hears tongues and says ye are mad. Why is that?

But he hears prophesying and says God is truly among you.

This is part of Paul's argument as to the imprtance of doing edifying behaviors in church and the superority of prophecy to uninterpreted tongues for edifying the assembly. In general in the New Testament signs testify to the word and it helped many believe. Evrn Thomas believed when He saw evidence of the risen Christ.

Carefully read Paul's argument in I Corinthians 14.

Nope.

If you go talking things that no one understands then i have every right to say ye are mad and this doesn't only apply to unbelievers, even believers will say ye are mad for saying things that can not be understood and it can not be a sign for anything.
If unbelievers say 'ye are mad' because of something you do meaning that they have their hearts hardened even more, how does that 'sign' help them?

A sign is most certainly a miracle that will have most people change their mind and believe in God.

But my question still is, how does speaking things that i don't understand a sign to me? a sign for what? what i'm i supposed to do after you spoken things to me that i don't understand?

 

[VincentG]

The Bible does not teach that 'pushing' , resiaring orbquenching the Spirit are unforgivable sins. Paul kicked against the pricks but he was forgiven.

Jesus warned that he who blashphed/spoke against the aspirit would not be forgiven 'in this age or in the age to com'.

what I had meant was not push but push away...I was tired when I typed that soo. I read this , this morning and your right and I knew it...I don't know why I put push..tired I guess .. whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin Mark 3:28–30

 

[CharliRenee]

I have read a few of the posts in this thread and want to say this...

While I don't speak in tongues, I know some that do. The ppl I am referring to are reasonable, honest, hardworking, and practical no nonsense individuals. They are not the sort to make up such abilities, or to avoid taking capture thoughts and imaginations that don't line up with the will of God.

I don't have this gift, but would love to. I love languages and so it would be awesome. I apologize if my tone sounds belittling with reference to this power. I'm trying, instead, to bring it Glory, as when it is used authentically it is by the work of Holy Spirit. How wonderful and supernatural is this super power, seriously.

I think that it should be honored and respected that we should avoid assuming, mocking or judging, and that goes for both sides. I so often hear ppl saying it is bologna, or that one is not filled with the spirit if they do not possess this gift. Both thoughts are unkind and fallible, if you ask me.

 

[Dino246]

Signs as gifts or signs as curses?

It would seem your mind is closed as to what prophecy reveals or even what is prophecy? No such thing as sign gifts as evidence a person is with God. But just the opposite .Signs speak of those who rebel refusing to hear God .

There is so much in this post that warrants a response. I'll have to break it into several parts due to time constraints.

First, you have written repeatedly that there are no such things as "sign gifts"... without the extra words you add here.

Paul in 1 Corinthians clearly and without equivocation calls both tongues and prophecy "gifts" and "signs". He does not say anything about either being evidence that the person is "with God". Again, I haven't advocated anything different. Let's stay on the same train of thought. If you want to address what others say about tongues, then quote them, not me.

Jesus said it a evil generation (natural unconverted man ) that has no faith that does seek after a signs. as the things the eye sees .

None will be given other than the sign of Jonas, the sign of the cross .It has passed.

You mentioned .1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that prophecy by the Holy Spirit is an "outward" gift, not merely in the heart. it is clearly of the heart man looks on the outside. We are to b obey the things of God the unseen .His holy place.

So then not if you read it .When reading it, it says tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe God's word, prophecy ? But rather to them that believe not.T hose who refuse to hear

Verse 22 calls prophecy a sign for thos who believe not the opposite what you offered

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

You are sharing your thoughts about something and not arguing for nothing. Tongues must serve some kind of a purpose as a sign. Signs point to something? The fact you have returned a answer is a sign you have read my requests.

They are a sign as evidence that they believe not prophecy (God's word). The sign seeker makes a noise and say it is evidence they do have the Holy Spirit . Its what we are talking about signs as evidence. Sign as designed to be against those who do not believe God . Gods word prophecy is for those who do believe.

How many times will you argue against assertions I have not made? How many times will you erroneously conflate unrelated passages? The Holy Spirit gives the gifts of prophecy and of tongues "for the common good" (1 Cor 12:7). "Sign seeking" is not mentioned in 1 Corinthians.

Of course God speaking in other languages other that Hebrew is prophecy .It is how our living God declares his revealed will (prophecy) Moving men to prophesy As in sending out his kingdom of priest (believers) out into the word a preach (prophesy) the revealed good will of God. believer that declare the gospel are prophets.

It what you and every one here is doing prophesying declaring the word of God.there is no outward sign for that just a new spirit and a new heart that God can work with .

Honestly, I don't understand why you can't see what is plainly written: that prophecy and tongues are distinct. Methinks you have a mental block on this issue.

1 Cor 13:8 inform us they will cease .They have.

Opinion without evidence.

 

[Dino246]

Nope.

If you go talking things that no one understands then i have every right to say ye are mad and this doesn't only apply to unbelievers, even believers will say ye are mad for saying things that can not be understood and it can not be a sign for anything.
If unbelievers say 'ye are mad' because of something you do meaning that they have their hearts hardened even more, how does that 'sign' help them?

A sign is most certainly a miracle that will have most people change their mind and believe in God.

But my question still is, how does speaking things that i don't understand a sign to me? a sign for what? what i'm i supposed to do after you spoken things to me that i don't understand?

Add "interpretation of tongues" to your scenario and your conclusion falls flat. God knows what He's doing.