(Part 2 continued)
To be correct, the scripture that you are quoting is 2 Thes.1:8. Below is the scripture in question:
"He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed, including you who have believed our testimony."
All that the scripture above is saying is that, God's vengeance will be Inflicted against unbelievers, which is referring to His wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because they will die not believing in Christ they will suffer eternal loss of well being and will be separated from the Lord's presence.
Thanks for putting in the effort to write all this. You spent a lot of time on it. I do not agree with your position, but I appreciate your study time.
I know there are variants of pre-trib, but I was taught that there would be a peace treaty-- peace peace when there is no peace-- and that there would be some kind of peace for a while with a middle east peace treat early in the 7 years, and the unpleasant stuff heats up more and more toward the end
Look at the verse up there in II Thessalonians 1:8. In this verse, Jesus is actually returning to be glorified in his saints. Pre-tribe has Jesus come half way down, get the saints, and go up again. So that's different. Pre-trib-- the version I was taught, gives the people on the earth some kind of mixed peace of some sort or the other.
There is no way to get two comings of Jesus out of II Thessalonians. That sort of thing has to be 'read into' the passage, just as it does with Revelation.
It is important to always keep in mind that after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath, there will also be a group of white robed saints from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles) which are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who are not the church but will be those who will become believers in Christ and are those who are in view throughout chapters 6 thru 18. Not once is this group ever referred to as the church.
As far as I can tell in my readings, and especially of Revelation, John never refers to all the saints throughout the whole world as 'the church.' Paul does-- or eventually starts to call the 'church' that in his writings. In early writings, it refers to literal assemblies or the saints who regularly assemble. So in John's writing, a church is a church in an assembly. Revelation does not call all those seven churches 'the church.' An individual congregation is called 'church' in Revelation. All believers everywhere are called 'saints.'
But II Thessalonians 1 does tell us that the 'church' will be here when Jesus gets back, which disproves this pre-trib argument.
Also the 'first resurrection' occurs AFTER the second coming passage in Revelation at the end of the book. In I Thess. 5 the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs immediately BEFORE the rapture. So the timing of pre-trib is all off.
I Corinthians 15 tells us that dead who are Christ's will be made alive 'at His coming', not seven years before His coming. There is no Biblical justification for making 'the parousia' into two events. So why go to the trouble of trying to explain Revelation or Thessalonians in a way to fit to pre-trib? There is no reason to want to do so? The only real reason is if someone has already been taught pre-trib, believes it, and wants it to be in the Bible. Who wants to go through a time of persecution and suffering?
True believers believe that the Lord comes to gather His church/bride before the tribulation because one, it is God's tribulation, His wrath,
The tribulation is not God's wrath. Wrath means anger or indignation, not a difficult time.
Show me where the Bible teaches the Lord will gather His church before the tribulation. That's the issue. John hearing 'come up hither' doesn't cut it.
which believers are not appointed to suffer and two, no where in scripture is it stated that the gathering of the church and the destruction of the man of lawlessness takes place at the same time.
The gathering of the elect occurs at or just after the coming of the Son of Man 'after the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24. I Thessalonians 2:1, using almost the same word for 'gathering' as Matthew 24, except that it's a noun not a verb speakings of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him.
Where is a pre-trib rapture in all this? Again, if you make the apostasy into the rapture, you can try to make an argument for it.
And I Thes. 4:15 and II Thes. 2:2 show us two things that happen at Jesus' coming: 1. the resurrection/rapture event. 2. the destruction of the man of sin.
What is the justification for making this into two events? Why try to spin all these verses into pre-trib when there is no real reason to believe it in the first place, and one second coming makes a lot more sense?
{quote]
Those who claim that the church is gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age have an enormous problem! Said problem being that, Revelation 19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. In verse 6-8 the bride/church is revealed to be in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. [/quote]
Woah, woah, wait just one minute. Let us actually look at the passage.
Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
(NKJV)
So, look, there is no seen of the saints here getting their linen in heaven. Instead, we see an announcement that it was given to her that she should be arrayed in fine linen, then a second coming vision. We know from Paul's writings that at the parousia, the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This all fits perfectly with post-trib. There is no need to invent an extra rapture that is taught nowhere in scripture. You don't have to have two second comings, or postulate a 7 year second coming where Jesus just stays there up in the air for seven years or any of that.
Then in verse 14, we see the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. We know that the army is referring to the bride, because it is said that they are wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she received at the wedding. In support of this, we also have a reference to when the Lord returns to the earth in Rev.17:14
Consider what Paul says in I Thessalonians 4. When Jesus comes back, the saints are caught up to meet Him in the air. So He does come back with the saints. II Thessalonians 1 says He comes back with holy angels, so that is true, too.
So Jesus being in the air with the saints is consistent with a straightforward reading of the Bible about Jesus coming back for the Second Coming only once. There does not need to be a second second coming. There is no reason here to have to invent a pre-trib theory.
I have done my own personal studies on the word of God and end-time events and base all of my conclusions squarely on God's word and not the writings of men. This whole controversy of the Lord's appearing to gather His church prior to His wrath vs. the church being gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, rests on God's coming wrath and the principle that believers are not appointed to suffer said wrath. It is a matter of understanding the principle of why this which is that Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer.
Wrath is anger, not a time period. We also have something somewhat similar in Exodus. God did not remove Israel from Egypt through a rapture to pour our His judgments on Egypt. He just kept the judgments from splashing on His own people. God is capable of such things.
The 'not appointed unto wrath' verse as I have shown before is contrasting wrath with obtaining salvation.
Tribulational saints are not appointed unto wrath either.
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be left alive."
And you believe that the Lord is going to leave His church on the earth during that time?
Refer back to what I just wrote. If those days of wrath
This passage does not call them days of wrath. But of course God has His people here during this time, and shortens the days for the elects sake.
IF you don't think it is God's will for His people to suffer, read the Bible.
