Not By Works

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Our spirit is born again, but not our flesh? Would you explain that to me, Thank you.

WHY ? ? ?

You have to be Born Again before YOU CAN UNDERSTAND. You do not understand the first thing about Born Again.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (NIV)
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Hi Endoscopy, I accept your 3 points as being useful from days of old to identify what a True Christian believes. But that does not translate to our world of technology today does it. And I think you have gone a step to far to say that, "it come from the heart." How can anyone know what is in the heart of a man or a woman.

Point is, VCO verified that he repeated the creed every Sunday Morning as part of the Lutheran Liturgy, but, he said he was not saved. That is why to say that it comes from the heart is not a valid point, because you cannot possibly know what is in a man's heart.

Ronald Reagan in a different context used the phrase, "trust but verify", why because human beings can be deceitful. What was useful in days of old does not translate to "useful", in today's world of technology. You are a High Tech Engineer, with a logical background. Surely logic would tell you that by saying words that were created by well meaning men centuries ago will not guarantee "who is a real" Christian, saying a creed cannot.

The gift of "Eternal Salvation" and the regeneration of a born again Christian is rooted in our faith in God. Saying a ritualistic creed every Sunday Morning is not a guarantee that you are a "real Christian." "The Eternal Destination", of a loved one is the point, are they on the path to heaven or to hell. Repeating the ritualistic traditions of days of old created by men, cannot save a living soul.

God bless
I request that before you reject the creeds you refute them biblically. They were created by the early elders as a definition of the beliefs a Christian must believe. How has this changed? Did the Bible change? You are correct that they can't save but you ignore that is not their purpose. Back then there were many diverse issues that there were disagreements about. The creeds defined 3 issues.
1. What a Christian must believe.
2. Anything contrary to the creed is heresy.
3. Anything outside of the creeds is to agree to disagree.

This is evident with all of the different denominations having these issues looked at differently and just agree to disagree. They all adhere to the statements in the creeds. As I stated above refute them Biblically. They are doctrinal statements. Your church has doctrinal statements defining their distinctives seperations them from churches who believe the minor issues differently. I guess since they were created by men to state the doctrine the church adheres to they must be rejected since they were written by man. You must also reject Sunday School literature for the same reason. Then there are all of the Christian liturature explaining different aspects of Christianity in everything from pamphlets to books by ministers. Men wrote them so they must be rejected.

See the slippery slope you started down
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Excuse me if I only take your judgement of me with a grain of salt. And no, I definetly don't want to hear a false Gospel, cainology, give the dog a bone, patty cake, or none of that nonsense.

And no, I don't think anyone is worthy of saving grace. None of us are worthy, but the words of Jesus still stand. Once you are saved you will take up your cross and follow him, if you don't and don't want to then you were probably never even saved to begin with and that's just the honest biblical truth about it. If God draws you and gives you a chance at salvation and you turn him down then no you are not worthy of being his disciple.

And I didn't see any where he said that works save you...but that if you are born again then you will have works. Once again that is the truth according to the Bible.

So yeah, I don't want any part of the patty cake, give the dog a bone, watered down version....

So let the stones fly folks.
You do understand you agreed with him, gave your consent and encouraged him to preach right...and he said the following....

only those who are obedient and deserve saving grace will be saved <--false
you may be able to walk another path and be saved<--false

congratulations.........you empowered the above and by default sided with that which is incorrect
 
Dec 12, 2013
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38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Yes Decon, I do really believe what you judge as drivel.
Dude.....like I said....verses out of context to push a false drivel of being worthy of saving grace speaks to your complete lack of understanding concerning what grace actually means......you will find out one day.....albeit too late....
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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But never on a Sabbath. That would be work. According to you, you cannot even play on the Sabbath :eek:
Is that what the voice in your mind says about God's Holy Sabbath? I never said that, I simply posted the Word of God which became Flesh.

Is. 58:
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

God is so cruel, He said we could golf the back nine 6 days a week, all day if we like, but on this one day of the week, He asks that we "honor Him" in His Righteousness, not ours.

What a burdensome, unjust God, who would imprison and blind all those people who would listen to Him in such an unjust way. Eve was also convinced of the same thing.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (reject the commandment) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The Word of God, which became Flesh, calls God's Sabbath a delight, Holy, Honorable.

I know this is taught against by every church, but God's Sabbath that He created for you is a joy and we have "fun" fasting from the pleasures of this world on this one day of the week.

I know why God made this Holy Day for man. I know why the prince of this world doesn't want anyone calling His Holy Sabbath a delight.

He made this day for man, all that is left is for us to "Believe" Him.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Dude.....like I said....verses out of context to push a false drivel of being worthy of saving grace speaks to your complete lack of understanding concerning what grace actually means......you will find out one day.....albeit too late....
So then what is your point Decon? God's Saving Grace is given to everyone? What does the Christ mean when He says "Not Worthy of Me" "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you that "work" iniquity" "Gather all that offend, and "DO" iniquity and cast them into the lake of fire".

How am I taking these out of context? How is the Christ saying "You are not Worthy of Me" a "False Drivel"?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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You do understand you agreed with him, gave your consent and encouraged him to preach right...and he said the following....

only those who are obedient and deserve saving grace will be saved <--false
you may be able to walk another path and be saved<--false

congratulations.........you empowered the above and by default sided with that which is incorrect
Decon,

I think 1often is seeking to know the God of the Bible. I think it is awful that you would discourage Him from trusting "EVERY WORD" of God.

These are Word's of God too Decon.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

These Word's are not drivel IMO.

I never said there is another path and you know it. You know it, but you said it anyway.

You know it is not true, but you said it anyway.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Since YOU DO NOT KNOW, here is what I think of the KJV. IT IS INFINITELY BETTER the NWT, almost a Day and Night difference.

However, IT IS A PARAPHRASE from the Older English Translations to the Way that English was Spoken at the time of King James.

How do I know, the Translators admitted in the Original 1611 Preface. As such it is the below any actual TRANSLATION from the

Original Languages Manuscripts, but still one of the better Paraphrases.



@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@



Now compare to the NWT, which is a PERVERSION of the Scriptures, because their so-called translation team where UNQUALIFIED, in that the one with the MOST education in GREEK, only had two years of Conversational Greek, not even two years of New Testament Greek. On top of that, they CHOSE TO Lift their Foot Notes in their First Edition into the THE ACTUAL TEXT ITSELF WITH OUT ANY DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE ACTUAL TEXT AND THEIR FOOT NOT COMMENTS, falsifying and disguising it as ALL GOD's WORDS.

How do I know?

Their Translation Team actually admitted what they did in the Second Edition Forward. When we True CHRISTIAN'S Noticed it, we were Prepared to Jump them about Lifting their Footnotes into the TEXT ITSELF.

Proverbs 30:6 (NKJV)
6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.


The Watchtower Society promptly published the THIRD EDITION, and a complete NEW FORWARD, with NO MENTION EVER AGAIN about lifting into the TEXT, their Footnotes. ALMOST NO MODERN DAY JEHOVAH WITNESS EVEN KNOWS what their Translation admitted in the Second Edition. THAT FALSIFIED their VERSION, because their uplifted Footnotes REMAINED, MAKING IT FOREVER A PERVERSION of GOD'S WORD. Their Footnote changed John 1:1 FROM:

John 1:1 (HCSB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


To This False Teaching: "1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."


OH MY!

But I found a copy of the Second Edition of the NWT, in a used book store, and NOW YOU CAN READ IT FOR YOURSELF.


I would ask them, "Do you believe that anyone who adds their own words to the Word of God is a False Prophet?" If they say "Yes", then ask them to read the FOREWORD of the Second Edition of the New World Translation copyright 1961:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


FOREWORD​

IT IS a very responsible thing to translate the Holy Scriptures from their original languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, into modern speech. Translating the Holy Scriptures means a rendering into another language the thoughts and sayings of the heavenly Author of this sacred library of sixty-six books, Jehovah God, which holy men of long ago put down in writing under inspiration for our benefit today.

That is a sobering thought. The translators who have a fear and love of the divine Author of the Holy Scriptures feel especially a responsibility toward Him to transmit his thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible. They also feel a responsibility toward the searching readers of the modern translation who depend upon the inspired Word of the Most High God for their everlasting salvation.

It was with such a sense of solemn responsibility that the committee of dedicated men have produced the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, over the course of many years. As soon as each part of the translation became available for publication it was turned over to the publishers for printing, all together in six volumes. The New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, containing the twenty-seven books from Matthew through The Revelation, first appeared in 1950. In due order the volumes of the New World Translation of the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures appeared, the first volume in 1953, the second in 1955, the third in 1957, the fourth in 1958, and the fifth in 1960.

From the start of the work it was the desire of the translators to have all these contemplated volumes brought together in the form of one book, inasmuch as the Holy Scriptures are in fact one book by the One Author. To this end, as soon as the final volume of the series had been issued in 1960, the committee set to work to prepare the entire translation for publication under one cover. The committee was then able to take under survey the translation as a whole and to discern where improvements could be made.

An effort was put forth to bring about even greater consistency in the renderings of the related parts of the Holy Scriptures, such as in harmonizing with the original Hebrew readings of the reading of quotations made in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Since the one-volume edition of the Holy Scriptures was to contain no footnotes, many footnote readings that had appeared in the earlier translation in six distinct volumes were lifted and put into the main text of the one-volume edition. This does not mean that the earlier rendering that was now replaced was rejected. Rather, the purpose was to attain to closer conformity to the literal reading in the original languages. All this process has resulted in revisions in the main text of the translation.

The now completed one-volume edition may therefore be properly called a revised edition of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. In releasing it for publication we do so with a deep sense of gratitude to the Divine Author of the Holy Scriptures, who has thus privileged us and in whose spirit we have trusted to co-operate with us in this worthy work. We hope for His blessing upon the published translation in behalf of all who read and use it in learning his holy will.


New World Bible Translation Committee

January 17, 1961, New York, N.Y.​

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OH MY!

:eek:


Proverbs 30:6 (NKJV)
6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.



The Watchtower Society is a PROVEN FALSE PROPHET.
So what about any version of the bible that is not an original. Is there anything added or subtracted, either by mistake or by willingness to change? It is difficult to answer, since we have no originals.

Tell me the best bible you think exists?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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So what about any version of the bible that is not an original. Is there anything added or subtracted, either by mistake or by willingness to change? It is difficult to answer, since we have no originals.

Tell me the best bible you think exists?
what ever version of the Bible one uses, they all say the same thing- we are saved by grace, through faith, for good works.

as much as you and others try to deconstruct and reconstruct Scripture to make it say that command / law keeping saves, it is not true.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Hey, let's do it the other way around, maybe only three or four that I know of thinks the HUMAN SPIRITS are ALIVE at natural birth.

EVERYONE ELSE understands BORN AGAIN, and that human spirit must be BORN AGAIN of the HOLY SPIRIT as HE comes into your HEART.

John 3:3-7 (HCSB)
3 Jesus replied, I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.

Here is JESUS calling the human Brain a SOUL, so this man was UNSAVED, so we know that part of man is alive an Natural Birth.

Luke 12:19-20 (NASB)
19 'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."'
20 "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

So that PART OF MAN is alive at Natural Birth, and obviously the Body is too.

SO WHAT PART OF MAN do you think was ONCE DEAD AT NATURAL BIRTH, THAT MUST BE BORN OF the Holy Spirit?

Ephesians 2:1-2 (HCSB)
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins
2 in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Romans 8:6 (NKJV)
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Proverbs 8:36 (HCSB)
36 but the one who misses me harms himself; all who hate me love death.”

1 John 3:14 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers.
The one who does not love remains in death.


Now we have determined that the Body and Soul are alive at Natural Birth, so what part do you think Remains in Death.
So you believe our spirits are alive at our natural birth. That is good.

The spirit cannot be 'born-again', unless it was born once. Right?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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I request that before you reject the creeds you refute them biblically. They were created by the early elders as a definition of the beliefs a Christian must believe. How has this changed? Did the Bible change? You are correct that they can't save but you ignore that is not their purpose. Back then there were many diverse issues that there were disagreements about. The creeds defined 3 issues.
1. What a Christian must believe.
2. Anything contrary to the creed is heresy.
3. Anything outside of the creeds is to agree to disagree.

This is evident with all of the different denominations having these issues looked at differently and just agree to disagree. They all adhere to the statements in the creeds. As I stated above refute them Biblically. They are doctrinal statements. Your church has doctrinal statements defining their distinctives seperations them from churches who believe the minor issues differently. I guess since they were created by men to state the doctrine the church adheres to they must be rejected since they were written by man. You must also reject Sunday School literature for the same reason. Then there are all of the Christian liturature explaining different aspects of Christianity in everything from pamphlets to books by ministers. Men wrote them so they must be rejected.

"See the slippery slope you started down"
Hi Endoscopy, I see your passion for the creed but I reject the use of a creed in the Church today because a person just like VCO may think they are saved only because they are repeating the creed every Sunday Morning. If that person dies and they are not saved because they did not trust in Jesus for salvation then the creed becomes problematic.

My wife and I attended a Presbyterian Church for about 6 months in Thailand. To be honest with you I have to say that I enjoyed being a regular attender/non-member. The preaching and teaching was excellent and the congregation was being feed the word of God absolutely. The fellowship was rich and I made several Thai friends while I was there. I was pleased when the Pastor and Senior Deacon allowed my wife and I to teach English to a small group of 5 members after lunch and fellowship in the Church cafeteria.

As I said before just ask VCO, if you place your trust in saying the creed each Sunday morning and you do not fully trust in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then the creed becomes problematic. It would be a tragedy of unspeakable grief if one parishioner died and was not saved. Repeating a creed is a "Church Tradition" so nobody is disputing the Church doctrinal statement, therefore to say that I have started, "A slippery slope" is a false statement.

I wish we could run a pole to see how many are pro's and how many are against the saying of a creed every Sunday Morning, >>>>> yes or no, >>>>> :p:eek::D:cry::geek:

Hi Endoscopy, Presbyterian Mission Church that my Thai wife and I attended/non-member.
Thai Mission Church, Lamphun Thailand
Presbyterian, Thai Mission Church. Lamphun Thailand.
This is the home of my wife and her over 100 relatives.





 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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what ever version of the Bible one uses, they all say the same thing- we are saved by grace, through faith, for good works.

as much as you and others try to deconstruct and reconstruct Scripture to make it say that command / law keeping saves, it is not true.
I do not say that command/law keeping saves.

I say that you will do good works that God has before ordained that you should walk in them.

Do you believe this?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Hi Endoscopy, I see your passion for the creed but I reject the use of a creed in the Church today because a person just like VCO may think they are saved only because they are repeating the creed every Sunday Morning. If that person dies and they are not saved because they did not trust in Jesus for salvation then the creed becomes problematic.

My wife and I attended a Presbyterian Church for about 6 months in Thailand. To be honest with you I have to say that I enjoyed being a regular attender/non-member. The preaching and teaching was excellent and the congregation was being feed the word of God absolutely. The fellowship was rich and I made several Thai friends while I was there. I was pleased when the Pastor and Senior Deacon allowed my wife and I to teach English to a small group of 5 members after lunch and fellowship in the Church cafeteria.

As I said before just ask VCO, if you place your trust in saying the creed each Sunday morning and you do not fully trust in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then the creed becomes problematic. It would be a tragedy of unspeakable grief if one parishioner died and was not saved. Repeating a creed is a "Church Tradition" so nobody is disputing the Church doctrinal statement, therefore to say that I have started, "A slippery slope" is a false statement.

I wish we could run a pole to see how many are pro's and how many are against the saying of a creed every Sunday Morning, >>>>> yes or no, >>>>> :p:eek::D:cry::geek:

Hi Endoscopy, Presbyterian Mission Church that my Thai wife and I attended/non-member.
Thai Mission Church, Lamphun Thailand
Presbyterian, Thai Mission Church. Lamphun Thailand.
This is the home of my wife and her over 100 relatives.





See, you are engaged in the work of the Lord. Good story.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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I do not say that command/law keeping saves.

I say that you will do good works that God has before ordained that you should walk in them.

Do you believe this?
This is what you have said . . . it is what you believe

And many will come before the Lord claiming the following:
a. I trusted totally in you Lord.
b. The Lord asks, how much fruit did you produce?
c. Answer: I was taught that you are saved without having to produce any fruit, all I had to do was trust in you, that you would input your righteousness on me and I would be saved from my sins.
d. The Lord asks, did you ever read John 15:2, I taught you to be productive or you would be taken away. I even purged those who produced, so they would produce more. It was important for you to be engaged in my works, to help me produce fruit for my kingdom. So I ask you, were you engaged in my work and produce fruit?
You totally misrepresent John 15:2 despite numerous attempts to explain the verse to you. At this point you are a false teacher.
 
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"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"
(Ephesians 2:10).

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Romans 7:9-10).

God ordained that the Law would save people if they met the perfect requirements of that Law . . . Paul could not, he died in his sin, but found life through the grace of Jesus Christ. So ordained does not mean what BenHur thinks it means.

"Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (I Corinthians 9:14).

Hey BenHur? Are you obeying this? Do you dig deep in your wallet and give your preacher enough money to live comfortably on? or do you believe that tithing isn't for the church age? Again, ordained doesn't mean what you think it does. Christians fail to obey this--do they go to hell because of it?

Maybe when God uses 'ordained' in relation to His purposes and those of Jesus Christ, they are absolute and unbreakable; but when speaking of sinners saved by grace--not so much.

You know, God saved me unto good works. I haven't always been so good . . . but you do know that I John 1:9 is still in the Bible, right?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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what ever version of the Bible one uses, they all say the same thing- we are saved by grace, through faith, for good works.

as much as you and others try to deconstruct and reconstruct Scripture to make it say that command / law keeping saves, it is not true.
You are not right. That is all I can tell you , you are just not right. For instance, what do you say about the difference between these 2 versions:
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 New International Version (NIV)
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

So the KJV says no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus, for those that walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Meaning that if you are in Jesus, but you do not walk in the spirit, but the flesh takes over and causes you to fall away, you may lose your salvation. (Same as John 15:2 says)

The NIV only says there is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus. Meaning that once you have been saved, you are always saved. (OSAS).

You tell me, which version is the correct gospel?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"
(Ephesians 2:10).

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Romans 7:9-10).

God ordained that the Law would save people if they met the perfect requirements of that Law . . . Paul could not, he died in his sin, but found life through the grace of Jesus Christ. So ordained does not mean what BenHur thinks it means.

"Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (I Corinthians 9:14).

Hey BenHur? Are you obeying this? Do you dig deep in your wallet and give your preacher enough money to live comfortably on? or do you believe that tithing isn't for the church age? Again, ordained doesn't mean what you think it does. Christians fail to obey this--do they go to hell because of it?

Maybe when God uses 'ordained' in relation to His purposes and those of Jesus Christ, they are absolute and unbreakable; but when speaking of sinners saved by grace--not so much.

You know, God saved me unto good works. I haven't always been so good . . . but you do know that I John 1:9 is still in the Bible, right?
You can squirm around and give your difinition of what 'ordained' means, but we all know what it means.

If we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Then you better be willing to walk in them. Or there will be eternal consequences.

I believe in tithing and pay it to my church. I do this to help God's people take care of the poor, and build up the KOG on earth.

I know that God has saved you unto good works, and I know if we stumble for a time and lose our way, 1 John 1:9 comes into play, if we initiate it. If we make the choice to come back onto the right path, and repent our ways, the Lord will forgive us and make all things right with us again. But if we never do come back and repent, there will be eternal consequences.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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This is what you have said . . . it is what you believe



You totally misrepresent John 15:2 despite numerous attempts to explain the verse to you. At this point you are a false teacher.
Sorry, John 15:2 is too straight forward. Those in Jesus, (all saved people) who do not produce fruit will be taken away, and lose their EL, unless they do what is said in 1 John 1:9. But we have to make the choice to start producing or suffer the consequences.