don't be overrighteous
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First Post, I’m really shocked you didn’t even do the basics before you posted.
1. Read it it modern English. KJV is just hopeless to make anything out of. I will never understand why anyone uses it.
2. Read it context. It is not hard. Well, modern versions are put into paragraphs, which makes it easier to get the main idea. None of this stupid line by line King J stuff.
So put it together, and you get:
“15 During the days of my fleeting life I have seen both of these things:
Sometimes a righteous person dies prematurely in spite of his righteousness,
and sometimes a wicked person lives long in spite of his evil deeds.
16 So do not be excessively righteous or excessively wise;
otherwise you might be disappointed.
17 Do not be excessively wicked and do not be a fool;
otherwise you might die before your time.
18 It is best to take hold of one warning without letting go of the other warning;
for the one who fears God will follow both warnings.” Ecc. 7:15-18
In other words, don’t do things to excess or extremes on either side of this warning.
1. Read it it modern English. KJV is just hopeless to make anything out of. I will never understand why anyone uses it.
2. Read it context. It is not hard. Well, modern versions are put into paragraphs, which makes it easier to get the main idea. None of this stupid line by line King J stuff.
So put it together, and you get:
“15 During the days of my fleeting life I have seen both of these things:
Sometimes a righteous person dies prematurely in spite of his righteousness,
and sometimes a wicked person lives long in spite of his evil deeds.
16 So do not be excessively righteous or excessively wise;
otherwise you might be disappointed.
17 Do not be excessively wicked and do not be a fool;
otherwise you might die before your time.
18 It is best to take hold of one warning without letting go of the other warning;
for the one who fears God will follow both warnings.” Ecc. 7:15-18
In other words, don’t do things to excess or extremes on either side of this warning.
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i've been reading the whole of Ecclesiastes, and i did have 7 or 8 versions open in front of me when i made the thread, trying to decide which one to post.
i've been thinking for a while that it is better to make a thread that just brings up a complex topic and asks questions about it rather than saying 'this is how it is' -- because the discussion fostered by making dogmatic statements is kind of limited to 'no, it's not like that' or 'yeah, amen, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong' i.e. arguing. but just asking questions makes a person think, and leaves the door open to more useful & neutral discussion. Socratic method, et al.
so i came to this passage, and thought, this is not a simple thing he's saying; maybe it would be good for us to look at & think and talk about.
i've been thinking for a while that it is better to make a thread that just brings up a complex topic and asks questions about it rather than saying 'this is how it is' -- because the discussion fostered by making dogmatic statements is kind of limited to 'no, it's not like that' or 'yeah, amen, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong' i.e. arguing. but just asking questions makes a person think, and leaves the door open to more useful & neutral discussion. Socratic method, et al.
so i came to this passage, and thought, this is not a simple thing he's saying; maybe it would be good for us to look at & think and talk about.
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the word here is literally 'be made desolate' not 'be disappointed' isn't it?
from an interpretive standpoint, taking into account v.20 & v.23, seeing that there is no one righteous and that Solomon himself saw wisdom as 'far from him' i can see where one gets the idea of being disappointed ((i kinda said this in post #102)), because both wisdom and righteousness in the abstract are as though unreachable goals, and gaining both lead one to realize & see their antithesis both in oneself and in others.
but to be faithful to the text, Solomon is saying that excess in these things can make a person desolate, which i think is hard to comprehend - aren't both wisdom & righteousness good things we should always seek?
but whether to obsessively go after either is a subtly different question.
i'm interested to know exactly what it is about excessive righteousness or wisdom that can make desolate.
the text doesn't include the word 'warnings' here at all, but is ambiguous 'this' and 'this one' and 'them all'
if he means warnings, which ones? for example, is it keep hold of 'the beginning of wisdom: get wisdom' ((Proverbs 4:7)) as well as 'do not be overly wise' ? this is hard because we know these are good things we should seek. discovering what 'temperance' with respect to being righteous or wise is, isn't necessarily plain, even if it is easy to see that what he's encouraging us to do is be temperate. pragmatically, at what point should a person say 'i'm righteous enough, i should stop' ??
from an interpretive standpoint, taking into account v.20 & v.23, seeing that there is no one righteous and that Solomon himself saw wisdom as 'far from him' i can see where one gets the idea of being disappointed ((i kinda said this in post #102)), because both wisdom and righteousness in the abstract are as though unreachable goals, and gaining both lead one to realize & see their antithesis both in oneself and in others.
but to be faithful to the text, Solomon is saying that excess in these things can make a person desolate, which i think is hard to comprehend - aren't both wisdom & righteousness good things we should always seek?
but whether to obsessively go after either is a subtly different question.
i'm interested to know exactly what it is about excessive righteousness or wisdom that can make desolate.
the text doesn't include the word 'warnings' here at all, but is ambiguous 'this' and 'this one' and 'them all'
if he means warnings, which ones? for example, is it keep hold of 'the beginning of wisdom: get wisdom' ((Proverbs 4:7)) as well as 'do not be overly wise' ? this is hard because we know these are good things we should seek. discovering what 'temperance' with respect to being righteous or wise is, isn't necessarily plain, even if it is easy to see that what he's encouraging us to do is be temperate. pragmatically, at what point should a person say 'i'm righteous enough, i should stop' ??
Maybe. But looking at the situation today, safe to say many (im including myself) are in any danger of being overrighteous 
Paul speaks about the Jews" desire to be righteous without the knowledge of how the Lord wants us to do this. They defined it with their own ideas instead of God's. Paul had difficulty explaining this, and you and I certainly have difficulty.
We can obey all the ten commandments because we agree that is the right way to live, or we can obey them because we have the spirit of the Lord within us. and obeying through the spirit is the right way. It isn't our righteousness or our wisdom, but our reflecting the Lord's wisdom and righteousness.
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Some time ago, some young man created a thread where he asked if he can accidentaly sell his soul.
Because of this fear, he reads all terms and conditions of all games, software and similar, just to be sure there is no sentence "I sell my soul", before he clicks "I agree".
I think we can call this an example of "to be too wise, too righteous".
Because of this fear, he reads all terms and conditions of all games, software and similar, just to be sure there is no sentence "I sell my soul", before he clicks "I agree".
I think we can call this an example of "to be too wise, too righteous".
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i was reading a thread in an orthodox Jewish forum the other day, where they were arguing about whether swimming in a pool was breaking sabbath, saying that it was if it didn't have a lip built on the edges of it, so that it wasn't like a natural body of water. because a rabbi in the talmud had once written that it was wrong to swim in a river or lake on sabbath because you may be tempted to build a barrel to float on.
seems like a similar situation to me
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You know when I look laterally, I find some I am more righteous than, some I am less righteous, and some I am equal to. But I look vertically I always fall short of the standard of which matters... the only one that counts... Y-shua. He is the only one my righteousness comes from; I am righteous because of Him and all those people I compared myself to my right and my left, give the exact same account I do... What did we do with Messiah!?! G-d does not care how I "look" compared to the "them" only to Him. He is the standard. But if I only look laterally I may NEVER know I fall short.... Then how will I know I'm a sinner in need of a Savior!?!
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