Till the Son of man be come
- Thread starter KJV1611
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I'm referring specifically to John 16:16-22 -
16 A little while and you behold Me no longer; and again a little while and you will see Me.” [some versions have also "because I am going away [ACTIVE] to the Father" (i.e. what He told MM THAT DAY/RESURRECTION DAY)]
Grief into Joy
17 Therefore some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while and you do not behold Me; and again a little while and you will see Me’ and ‘Because I am going [ACTIVE] to the Father’?” 18 Therefore they were saying, “What is this that He says, ‘a little while’? We do not know what He is saying.”
19 Jesus knew that they were desiring to ask Him, and He said to them, “Do you inquire among one another concerning this, that I said, ‘A little while and you do not behold Me, and again a little while and you will see Me’? 20 Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and will lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be grieved, but your grief will turn to joy. 21 The woman has pain when she is giving birth, because her hour has come; but when she brings forth the child, she remembers the tribulation no longer, on account of the joy that a man has been born into the world. 22 Therefore you also indeed have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.
[see Lk24:41 "for joy" (that very evening) and v.52 (later, at His visible ascension) "and [they] returned to Jerusalem with great joy"]
16 A little while and you behold Me no longer; and again a little while and you will see Me.” [some versions have also "because I am going away [ACTIVE] to the Father" (i.e. what He told MM THAT DAY/RESURRECTION DAY)]
Grief into Joy
17 Therefore some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while and you do not behold Me; and again a little while and you will see Me’ and ‘Because I am going [ACTIVE] to the Father’?” 18 Therefore they were saying, “What is this that He says, ‘a little while’? We do not know what He is saying.”
19 Jesus knew that they were desiring to ask Him, and He said to them, “Do you inquire among one another concerning this, that I said, ‘A little while and you do not behold Me, and again a little while and you will see Me’? 20 Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and will lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be grieved, but your grief will turn to joy. 21 The woman has pain when she is giving birth, because her hour has come; but when she brings forth the child, she remembers the tribulation no longer, on account of the joy that a man has been born into the world. 22 Therefore you also indeed have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.
[see Lk24:41 "for joy" (that very evening) and v.52 (later, at His visible ascension) "and [they] returned to Jerusalem with great joy"]
Oooh! so the word grief should always mean death?
I repeat, that whole chapter is about the Holy spirit and the grief is explained in earlier verses:
John 16:
1“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
I repeat, that whole chapter is about the Holy spirit and the grief is explained in earlier verses:
John 16:
1“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
I'm not denying that after His VISIBLE ascension ['went up [passive]'], the Holy Spirit would be given (40-days later)... but I'm pointing out what He was saying He was going to do ON HIS RESURRECTION DAY (fulfilling FIRSTFRUIT, Lev23:10-12, 1Cor15:20), that which He told MM to TELL the other disciples (regarding His "[ACTIVE] ascend" THAT VERY DAY/FIRSTFRUIT/His RESURRECTION DAY).
They didn't believe her testimony, until Jesus later that same evening showed up, and, "14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them WHICH HAD SEEN HIM after he was risen." And now that THEY had seen Him also, THEY "joyed" too! (Just as He'd said)
_____
Acts 13:30-37 -
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
They didn't believe her testimony, until Jesus later that same evening showed up, and, "14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them WHICH HAD SEEN HIM after he was risen." And now that THEY had seen Him also, THEY "joyed" too! (Just as He'd said)
_____
Acts 13:30-37 -
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
I detest single verses since out of context they can seem to say something contrary to what the Bible teaches. For proper understanding verses need to be in context in the place where it is from as well as all other texts on the issue.
Your theology is at odds with what Jesus said. First Jesus statement then Isaiah talking about what happens to those opposed to God. Then Thessalonians about Christians who have died.
Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Isaiah 24 AMPC
21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.
1 Thessalonians 4 NIV
Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
AMPC
13 Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope [beyond the grave].
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death].
15 For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death].
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!
18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words.
Your theology is at odds with what Jesus said. First Jesus statement then Isaiah talking about what happens to those opposed to God. Then Thessalonians about Christians who have died.
Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Isaiah 24 AMPC
21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.
1 Thessalonians 4 NIV
Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
AMPC
13 Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope [beyond the grave].
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death].
15 For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death].
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!
18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words.
Nope. Jesus started talking about His going and coming back in John 14, and everybody except you, knows He was talking about the Holy spirit and not about His resurrection. Here is a clear example:
John 14:15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
When He tells them that He will come to them shortly, did He mean His resurrection or the comforter who was already living with them, who was to come in another form?
John 14:15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
When He tells them that He will come to them shortly, did He mean His resurrection or the comforter who was already living with them, who was to come in another form?
I have asked you a question which you seem to have no interest in answering.
Why did Paul count himself amongst those that are alive during Christ's coming even as per you own choice of translation?
Matthew 24 talks of the sign of the son of man appearing- i told you, your understanding has failed when it comes to this subject.
Why did Paul count himself amongst those that are alive during Christ's coming even as per you own choice of translation?
Matthew 24 talks of the sign of the son of man appearing- i told you, your understanding has failed when it comes to this subject.
There are three DIFFERENT teachings all shown within one passage, which include (1) the time of the earthly ministry of Christ, (2) the future of Israel before the second coming of Christ, and (3) the present Church age.
So the context of verse 23 is Israel before the second coming of Christ, and is corroborated by Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse).
MATTHEW 10
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
MATTHEW 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
So the context of verse 23 is Israel before the second coming of Christ, and is corroborated by Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse).
MATTHEW 10
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
MATTHEW 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
As I said, i might be in the minority view TODAY. But in the past it was certainly the majority. Even amongst the reformers. I am in good company, that is how I see the scriptures.
I just dont see the antichrist looming at every corner and in every verse. The text makes no mention of a gap, therefore I dont insert a gap. Its simple really.
I just dont see the antichrist looming at every corner and in every verse. The text makes no mention of a gap, therefore I dont insert a gap. Its simple really.
I answered the question. I will repeat the answer. Why do you assume the we is specifically him and not the collective we of all Christians at the time of his coming. Keep in mind that at times English is ambiguous when using personal pronouns. You will have to go to the original language to verify who "we" is.
Acts records the disciples were going through Israel and spreading the word. Some were killed for it. Saul was one of those doing the killing. Jesus confronted him and he ended up becoming Paul. The writer of most of the epistles. Keep in mind that Israel is a small country. Approximately the size of Idaho. Any point in it is 100 miles or less to the border.
You do not grasp the context of the passage. It is evident that you wish the context to be first century but Christ is speaking to the last days before His second advent.
Verse 22 speaks of the deliverance of those who are faithful to the end of the tribulation. These will then be delivered at the second coming of Christ.
Scripture can always mean one of two things. Only one is correct and the other is error.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Verse 22 speaks of the deliverance of those who are faithful to the end of the tribulation. These will then be delivered at the second coming of Christ.
Scripture can always mean one of two things. Only one is correct and the other is error.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Why would the text mention a gap when the Church was a Mystery to the OT prophets, and only revealed to Paul? Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks is for the Jews, the temple Jerusalem, and Judea.
Sixty nine weeks of years have been completed, but one week remains. And we know that half that week (3 1/2 years) belongs to the Antichrist.
Therefore we see this is Daniel and Revelation:
1. Time (1 year), times (2 years), and the dividing of time (six months) = 3 1/2 years
2. Forty and two months = 3 1/2 years
3. A thousand two hundred and threescore days = 1260 days = 3 1/2 years.
And this verse is critical (Rev 13:5): And there was given unto him [the Beast, the Antichrist] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Sixty nine weeks of years have been completed, but one week remains. And we know that half that week (3 1/2 years) belongs to the Antichrist.
Therefore we see this is Daniel and Revelation:
1. Time (1 year), times (2 years), and the dividing of time (six months) = 3 1/2 years
2. Forty and two months = 3 1/2 years
3. A thousand two hundred and threescore days = 1260 days = 3 1/2 years.
And this verse is critical (Rev 13:5): And there was given unto him [the Beast, the Antichrist] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Looking at your screen name you are a proud proponent of the flawed KJV version. Language changes over time. 1611 is 400 years old and several words have changed meaning in that time. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill." in modern translations is "You shall not murder." In 1611 kill meant to deliberately murder. Today it is used for both accidental deaths and deliberate action. For example. He was killed accidentally falling off a cliff. He was killed bering pushed off of a cliff. Context says which it is.
What difference does the size make, Christ said he would return before the disciples went to all the cities of Israel?
You have to think outside of the box. When did Christ leave this earth and come back before the disciples went to all of Israel.... think about it, you know the answer. When did Christ do exactly what he said would happen in that verse?
You have to think outside of the box. When did Christ leave this earth and come back before the disciples went to all of Israel.... think about it, you know the answer. When did Christ do exactly what he said would happen in that verse?