Not By Works

[Jewel5712]

OK and He said:

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."

SO to me, that is the way I see it, there is no doubt; it is not permissable.

And..to add..sacrifices to God and idols a lot were for atomement of sins etc (although some idol stuff was for fetility..crops etc..but in the religious realm) so after Jesus death there WAS no need for animal sacrifices..

 

[Shamah]

I have read some of your posts here, and have a few questions:

-Do you believe we must keep the Torah?
-If so, which parts of the Torah apply? Since we know the abrahamic / mosaic circumcision is now abolished according to Paul who says uncircumcision or circumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God. (I've always thought it strange since circumcision IS a commandment, what does Paul mean there?)
-Do you believe in the deity of Jesus?

I believe heaven and earth has not passed:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

I believe the Levitical priesthood is replaced with Yahshua the High Priest after the order of Malak Zadiq:

Hebrews 13:20 “And the Mighty One of peace who brought up our Master יהושע from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.”

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But the Messiah came near as a High Priest over the righteous things to come, with the great and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation; Nor through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Thus we guard the Law mediated by Yahshua:

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change appointed times and Laws…"

As for circumcision, a much debated topic, I am always seeking and learning, I think the main intent of circumcision has always been of the heart, but doing it physical is like a physical baptisim, not wrong but an outward sign of an inward commitment..

Deuteronomy 10:16, “And you shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and harden your neck no more.”

I believe YHWH (the Father) is greater that Yahshua (the Messiah) but that the MEssiah is eternal:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Psalm 110:4, “יהוה has sworn and does not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Malkitseḏeq.”

Hebrews 5:6, "just as He says also in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

Daniyl 7:13-14, “I was looking in the night visions and saw One like the Son of Enosh, coming with the clouds of the heavens! And He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And to Him was given rulership and preciousness and a reign, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His rule is an everlasting rule which shall not pass away, and His reign that which shall not be destroyed.”

 

[Shamah]

Setting up fake debate points.

I have never been fake, never set up fake debates.
Thanks for the accusation of being fake.
It's done my heart good.

I'm discussing many Bible verses that relate to the issue in hand.

Is the Apostle Paul a heretic?

Bringing shellfish and bacon into a discussion about meat sacrificed to idols as some kind of evidence is conflating something that has no bearing on the other. Especially since the idols thing is spoken against by Yahshua in Revelaion. I believe the Messiah is the One we must "hear and obey" (Deut 18:18-19, Acst 3 and Acts 7) and that many people misunderstand Paul. I personally have no issue here because I have a rule that says, the Messiah is my King, He sais we are to follow Him, so anyone who has any kind of contradiction or even precieved contradiction, discreapency or anything, I refer to the Messiah's words. In essence, I filter everyone through the Messiah as opposed to filtering the Messiah through others words.

 

[BillG]

Bringing shellfish and bacon into a discussion about meat sacrificed to idols as some kind of evidence is conflating something that has no bearing on the other. Especially since the idols thing is spoken against by Yahshua in Revelaion. I believe the Messiah is the One we must "hear and obey" (Deut 18:18-19, Acst 3 and Acts 7) and that many people misunderstand Paul. I personally have no issue here because I have a rule that says, the Messiah is my King, He sais we are to follow Him, so anyone who has any kind of contradiction or even precieved contradiction, discreapency or anything, I refer to the Messiah's words. In essence, I filter everyone through the Messiah as opposed to filtering the Messiah through others words.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Let's leave it there.
An impasse I feel.

 

[Shamah]

And..to add..sacrifices to God and idols a lot were for atomement of sins etc (although some idol stuff was for fetility..crops etc..but in the religious realm) so after Jesus death there WAS no need for animal sacrifices..

The MOst High never Commanded, taught or accepted sacrifices to idols, He condemmed it from Genesis to Revelation... So while I agree at one time, not anymore, but there was a sacrificial system unto YHWH, I disagree that sacrificing to idols was ever acceptable to YHWH...

Revelation 9:20-21, “And the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship the demons, and idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood, which are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk, and they did not repent of their murders, nor of their drug sorceries, nor of their whoring, nor of their thefts.”





Psalms 115:4-8,4 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of men’s hands."5 They have mouths, but they do not speak; They have eyes, but they do not see;"6 They have ears, but they do not hear; They have noses, but they do not smell;"7 They have hands, but they do not handle; They have feet, but they do not walk; They make no sound through their throat."8 The ones who make them, shall become like them – All who trust in them."

 

[Rosemaryx]

Don`t you just want to shout out in the flesh ...Sometimes I do , I don`t like being stirred , I just wish there was no dividing , but there is , who are those that divide the word of God , sometimes I just want to say " Look here , WAKE UP " but Jesus says I must be humble...

B GODS GRACE WE ARE SAVED , you workers relax , you have nothing to do with it , praise the LORD and thank You Jesus...xox...

 

[Shamah]

Thank you for your thoughts.

Let's leave it there.
An impasse I feel.

Fair enough, I would like to say the Messiah was the Sent One, perfect, no man is perfect and leave you with some words from the Messiah if I may?

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[Deade]

I love shellfish.
Mind you I am a shellfish person

Why are you playing the strawman today? You start off arguing about meat sacrificed to idols and play on into clean and unclean foods which is an another argument. Here is what Paul said about this sacrifice meat:

1 Cor. 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."

So we see it is nothing to worry about. Eat with a clear conscience. But Paul also warns us to be careful not to be the cause of another believer's stumble.

1 Cor. 8:7 "Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled."

He is saying: if another thinks you are honoring that idol by eating the meat because he does not understand, refrain. It is better to not eat it if another doesn't share your views on it.

1 Cor. 8:10,11 "For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?" It is not that hard to understand.

 

[BillG]

Fair enough, I would like to say the Messiah was the Sent One, perfect, no man is perfect and leave you with some words from the Messiah if I may?

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

As I said let's leave it there.

I love Jesus you love Jesus.
We both want to be like him.

He is the ultimate judge.

He will set through it all.

If we are sheep we go to heaven.

 

[Jewel5712]

Bringing shellfish and bacon into a discussion about meat sacrificed to idols as some kind of evidence is conflating something that has no bearing on the other. Especially since the idols thing is spoken against by Yahshua in Revelaion. I believe the Messiah is the One we must "hear and obey" (Deut 18:18-19, Acst 3 and Acts 7) and that many people misunderstand Paul. I personally have no issue here because I have a rule that says, the Messiah is my King, He sais we are to follow Him, so anyone who has any kind of contradiction or even precieved contradiction, discreapency or anything, I refer to the Messiah's words. In essence, I filter everyone through the Messiah as opposed to filtering the Messiah through others words.

Interpretation of the Bible varies per person..even for the people who WROTE the Bible sooo..its hard to sometimes point fingers and say theyre wrong as we ALL look to God for revolation n insight via His Word..prayer etc

 

[Shamah]

Interpretation of the Bible varies per person..even for the people who WROTE the Bible sooo..its hard to sometimes point fingers and say theyre wrong as we ALL look to God for revolation n insight via His Word..prayer etc

I agree and believe no person, myself included has every doctrine nailed down perfectly.

That is why for me, my main guide, path, light, goal, principle, etc. is the Messiah and His words.

John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

 

[Jewel5712]

Why are you playing the strawman today? You start off arguing about meat sacrificed to idols and play on into clean and unclean foods which is an another argument. Here is what Paul said about this sacrifice meat:

1 Cor. 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."

So we see it is nothing to worry about. Eat with a clear conscience. But Paul also warns us to be careful not to be the cause of another believer's stumble.

1 Cor. 8:7 "Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled."

He is saying: if another thinks you are honoring that idol by eating the meat because he does not understand, refrain. It is better to not eat it if another doesn't share your views on it.

1 Cor. 8:10,11 "For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?" It is not that hard to understand.

I think bill was being funny with his comment to me but i think this subject has gone on tanents to as rev 2:20 was brought up the most..

 

[BillG]

Why are you playing the strawman today? You start off arguing about meat sacrificed to idols and play on into clean and unclean foods which is an another argument. Here is what Paul said about this sacrifice meat:

1 Cor. 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."

So we see it is nothing to worry about. Eat with a clear conscience. But Paul also warns us to be careful not to be the cause of another believer's stumble.

1 Cor. 8:7 "Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled."

He is saying: if another thinks you are honoring that idol by eating the meat because he does not understand, refrain. It is better to not eat it if another doesn't share your views on it.

1 Cor. 8:10,11 "For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?" It is not that hard to understand.

Didn't think I was playing strawman today.
I have no idea what it means to do so.

I don't feel I started an argument but was responding to one.

I also quoted 1Cor 8 as well.
Well actually I asked "What are the thoughts concerning 1 Cor 8?

I know what it means full well otherwise I would not have quoted it.
Trying to draw a response to discuss.

Can't see a strawman with that.

 

[Deade]

Don`t you just want to shout out in the flesh ...Sometimes I do , I don`t like being stirred , I just wish there was no dividing , but there is , who are those that divide the word of God , sometimes I just want to say " Look here , WAKE UP " but Jesus says I must be humble...

B GODS GRACE WE ARE SAVED , you workers relax , you have nothing to do with it , praise the LORD and thank You Jesus...xox...

Why don't you relax, we are plenty awake. Would you not say that our faith will have works after we have been saved by grace? You keep implying we are trying to be saved by works, not true. I did not do anything to receive God's gift of life. Just like you, I was saved by grace.

Now, I do many different things than I did as an unbeliever. Next, someone comes along and condemns me for keeping the 10 Commandments. I have been to the mission field and worked drug rehab in Oakland, Cal. This was during the crack epidemic from 1985-1992. God has brought me down a path of faith that most wouldn't believe. When I get nervous is when I have no works.

 

[Deade]

Didn't think I was playing strawman today.
I have no idea what it means to do so.

I don't feel I started an argument but was responding to one.

I also quoted 1Cor 8 as well.
Well actually I asked "What are the thoughts concerning 1 Cor 8?

I know what it means full well otherwise I would not have quoted it.
Trying to draw a response to discuss.

Can't see a strawman with that.

Like I said the discussion was about meat offered to idols not clean and unclean meats. A strawman with redirect an argument into another topic, just like you did.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Why don't you relax, we are plenty awake. Would you not say that our faith will have works after we have been saved by grace? You keep implying we are trying to be saved by works, not true. I did not do anything to receive God's gift of life. Just like you, I was saved by grace.

Now, I do many different things than I did as an unbeliever. Next, someone comes along and condemns me for keeping the 10 Commandments. I have been to the mission field and worked drug rehab in Oakland, Cal. This was during the crack epidemic from 1985-1992. God has brought me down a path of faith that most wouldn't believe. When I get nervous is when I have no works.

Ii am relaxed...If you read my post earlier you will see what Ii am asking...Why do people think they need to add works , does it not frustrate you when time and time again Scripture is posted that claims it is finished , it is by God`s grace , then once we are saved , we are called for good works , I am just frustrated lol , that`s all...xox...

 

[BillG]

Why don't you relax, we are plenty awake. Would you not say that our faith will have works after we have been saved by grace? You keep implying we are trying to be saved by works, not true. I did not do anything to receive God's gift of life. Just like you, I was saved by grace.

Now, I do many different things than I did as an unbeliever. Next, someone comes along and condemns me for keeping the 10 Commandments. I have been to the mission field and worked drug rehab in Oakland, Cal. This was during the crack epidemic from 1985-1992. God has brought me down a path of faith that most wouldn't believe. When I get nervous is when I have no works.

She is saying the opposite to what you are implying.
She is saying those who rely on works to be saved will not save them.
She knows full well that works will follow as a result of genuine faith.

 

[Jewel5712]

I agree and believe no person, myself included has every doctrine nailed down perfectly.

That is why for me, my main guide, path, light, goal, principle, etc. is the Messiah and His words.

John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

Deuteronomy 6 :4-9

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates."

And although i know this was regarding OT law and comhmands..we are supposed to teach our children about Gods word and take EVERY OPPERTUNITY to tell them about Jesus that our families will be God honoring...etc

 

[Rosemaryx]

She is saying the opposite to what you are implying.
She is saying those who rely on works to be saved will not save them.
She knows full well that works will follow as a result of genuine faith.

Thank you brother Bill , that is exactly what I am saying...xox...

 

[Hevosmies]

I believe heaven and earth has not passed:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

I believe the Levitical priesthood is replaced with Yahshua the High Priest after the order of Malak Zadiq:

Hebrews 13:20 “And the Mighty One of peace who brought up our Master יהושע from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.”

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But the Messiah came near as a High Priest over the righteous things to come, with the great and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation; Nor through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Thus we guard the Law mediated by Yahshua:

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change appointed times and Laws…"

As for circumcision, a much debated topic, I am always seeking and learning, I think the main intent of circumcision has always been of the heart, but doing it physical is like a physical baptisim, not wrong but an outward sign of an inward commitment..

Deuteronomy 10:16, “And you shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and harden your neck no more.”

Okay there. Did you know the Bible states the levites will:
Jeremiah 33:18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’ ”

Jeremiah 33:20-21
This is what the Lord says: ‘If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne.

Circumcision within Christianity is NOT a much debated topic, Paul says it doesn't matter its "nothing" and he rebukes people who try to compel others to be circumcised, and says that if you are called uncircumcised remain so!

And did you notice "until all things are fulfilled" in Matthew 5:18? It was fulfilled, at the cross. And even if it wasn't, your position is inconsistent because the levitical laws and rituals are part of the "yod" the smallest letters, and are part of the law which wont disappear until the new heaven and earth come along. So you should get to sacrificing!

I agree with you that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves and love God with all our hearts minds and soul.

And one more thing, do you believe in the trinity?

I will answer my own question of what applies from the Torah:
The things that Jesus and the Apostles taught to us in the New Testament.