Where do believers go after death?

[Noose]

And what does this mean?

2 Peter 1:12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

 

[JaumeJ]

They sleep, as do all until the resurrection.............They will be gathered by Yeshua's angels first, then those who remain in the flesh who are inJesus will be gathered also, all together on the clouds.....

 

[Noose]

They sleep, as do all until the resurrection.............They will be gathered by Yeshua's angels first, then those who remain in the flesh who are inJesus will be gathered also, all together on the clouds.....

But this doesn't sound like sleeping:

2 Peter 1:12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

 

[JohnRH]

Believers, when they die, go to be "with Christ" (Philippians 1:23), "present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8); who is in heaven (Acts 1:11). They go to heaven.

And what does this mean?

2 Peter 1:12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

He could be talking about writing this epistle (2 Peter), and preserving it by making copies and making sure it arrives to his intended readers. He mentions the apostle Paul and his epistles in chapter 3, verses 15 &16. Possibly Peter was endeavoring to copy & preserve Paul's NT writings too. He may have helped Mark in penning the Gospel of Mark. These would all serve as reminders of NT truth ("these things") to his readers after his death.

 

[BenFTW]

But this doesn't sound like sleeping:

2 Peter 1:12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

I think you're reading it incorrectly, thinking that it is implying he is doing something after his departure as opposed to doing something prior to his departure that would, through his every effort, allow them to be able to remember "these things" (after his departure).

 

[Noose]

Believers, when they die, go to be "with Christ" (Philippians 1:23), "present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8); who is in heaven (Acts 1:11). They go to heaven.


He could be talking about writing this epistle (2 Peter), and preserving it by making copies and making sure it arrives to his intended readers. He mentions the apostle Paul and his epistles in chapter 3, verses 15 &16. Possibly Peter was endeavoring to copy & preserve Paul's NT writings too. He may have helped Mark in penning the Gospel of Mark. These would all serve as reminders of NT truth ("these things") to his readers after his death.

I highly doubt. Peter says he will spare no effort in 'teaching' believers even after his death with the same zeal that he had before he died.
I have always believed that believers that die have their souls resurrected into heaven and heaven is no other place other than the hearts of living believers. It is from here that they cheer us on but also judge us.

 

[Noose]

I think you're reading it incorrectly, thinking that it is implying he is doing something after his departure as opposed to doing something prior to his departure that would, through his every effort, allow them to be able to remember "these things" (after his departure).

But that's not what he says, read it again.

And:

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everyencumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles,and let us run with endurance the race set out forus.

 

[BenFTW]

But that's not what he says, read it again.

And:

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everyencumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles,and let us run with endurance the race set out forus.

That's exactly what he says friend. Lets see if I can show it... I don't know which version you used but lets use the version you posted.

2 Peter 1:12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

He is saying that he is making every effort to see that after his passing they will be able to remember "these things", whatever those things are. Not that after his passing he would bring it to their remembrance, but he would do something so that after he passes they are able to remember what he was teaching.

The reference to a great cloud of witnesses is about the historical examples we have of the people of our faith (in scripture). People of faith, who used their faith to accomplish the impossible, because they believed God. Literally Hebrews 11 is a list of the great examples of faith (we have) that preceded us. People we can learn from and be inspired by.

 

[JohnRH]

Peter says he will spare no effort in 'teaching' believers even after his death with the same zeal that he had before he died.

That sounds like some weird form of necromancy.
The Holy Spirit does the teaching, not deceased saints. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
People make out a will BEFORE they die, not after.

 

[Noose]

That's exactly what he says friend. Lets see if I can show it... I don't know which version you used but lets use the version you posted.

2 Peter 1:12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

He is saying that he is making every effort to see that after his passing they will be able to remember "these things", whatever those things are. Not that after his passing he would bring it to their remembrance, but he would do something so that after he passes they are able to remember what he was teaching.

The reference to a great cloud of witnesses is about the historical examples we have of the people of our faith (in scripture). People of faith, who used their faith to accomplish the impossible, because they believed God. Literally Hebrews 11 is a list of the great examples of faith (we have) that preceded us. People we can learn from and be inspired by.

You could be right if that verse is viewed in a limited context or isolation but i will test your understanding with other texts as follows:

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.


You can read the whole chapter and understand the context but i would like you to tell me:

Q1. What rooms are these that the dead will seek refuge? and where are these rooms?

Q2.- see my next post. Long post alart but don't be afraid to read the whole of it.

 

[JohnRH]

You could be right if that verse is viewed in a limited context or isolation but i will test your understanding with other texts as follows:

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.


You can read the whole chapter and understand the context but i would like you to tell me:

Q1. What rooms are these that the dead will seek refuge? and where are these rooms?

Q2.- see my next post. Long post alart but don't be afraid to read the whole of it.

Verse 19 is talking about the future resurrection of the dead.
Verse 20 is addressing people who haven't died yet.

 

[Noose]

BenFTW

Psalms 103
1Praise the Lord, my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
2Praise the Lord, my soul,
and forget not all his benefits—
3who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
4who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
5who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
6The Lord works righteousness
and justice for all the oppressed.
7He made known his ways to Moses,
his deeds to the people of Israel:
8The Lord is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
13As a father has compassion on his children,
so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
14for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
15The life of mortals is like grass,
they flourish like a flower of the field;
16the wind blows over it and it is gone,
and its place remembers it no more.
17But from everlasting to everlasting
the Lord’s love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children’s children—
18with those who keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.
19The Lord has established his throne in heaven,
and his kingdom rules over all.
20Praise the Lord, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
21Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.
22Praise the Lord, all his works
everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the Lord, my soul.

Q2. What does this mean?

 

[Noose]

Verse 19 is talking about the future resurrection of the dead.
Verse 20 is addressing people who haven't died yet.

Are you serious? Are you convinced that living believers will lock themselves in some rooms during the wrath?

 

[JaumeJ]

But this doesn't sound like sleeping:

2 Peter 1:12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

It seems Peter is speaking of making that effort before his crossing Jordan (expression for going to sleep or death.)
We who believe do sleep in the hope of Jesus for He is the Firstborn of the reserrection Wh is the Resurrection, and we follow.

God bless you and hold you close.......

 

[Deuteronomy]

Where do believers go after death?.

Here are some passages to consider.

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”
8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

2 Corinthians 5
6 We are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

So, how can any of this be true if the dead are unconscious until the Great White Throne (in the case of the reprobate), or the Bema Seat and Glory in the case of the saints?

How can those who are dead/absent from the body, make it their aim to do anything, much less to be well-pleasing to the Lord (in death, as they would in life), if they are not conscious when they are with Him in death?

How could St. Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ (rather than laboring on in the flesh and the faith here for the sake of the saints), if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying interred in an unconscious state?

And how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice" if their souls are just as lifeless as their dead bodies are in the ground?

It is because of passages such as these that the church as a whole (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran, etc., all, in fact, within the pale of Christian orthodoxy) has steadfastly taught that the doctrine of the "sleep of the soul" is heretical. We are conscious in death and at home with the Lord if we are Christians, while our bodies lie in the ground in death awaiting resurrection.

~Deut

.........Mark 12
.........27 ..He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
.

 

[Noose]

Here are some passages to consider.

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”
8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

2 Corinthians 5
6 We are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

So, how can any of this be true if the dead are unconscious until the Great White Throne (in the case of the reprobate), or the Bema Seat and Glory in the case of the saints?

How can those who are dead/absent from the body, make it their aim to do anything, much less to be well-pleasing to the Lord (in death, as they would in life), if they are not conscious when they are with Him in death?

How could St. Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ (rather than laboring on in the flesh and the faith here for the sake of the saints), if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying interred in an unconscious state?

And how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice" if their souls are just as lifeless as their dead bodies are in the ground?

It is because of passages such as these that the church as a whole (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran, etc., all, in fact, within the pale of Christian orthodoxy) has steadfastly taught that the doctrine of the "sleep of the soul" is heretical. We are conscious in death and at home with the Lord if we are Christians, while our bodies lie in the ground in death awaiting resurrection.

~Deut

.........Mark 12
.........27 ..He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
.

Right.
In my understanding of Psalm 103, David describes his own soul as a heavenly host. Those that are resurrected are a joyful assembly in his soul. I'm not sure but that's what i get.

 

[Noose]

That sounds like some weird form of necromancy.
The Holy Spirit does the teaching, not deceased saints. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
People make out a will BEFORE they die, not after.

I don't know what necromancy means but i'll surely check it out.

It is true that the Holy spirit teaches us but you must remember godliness is a mystery and part of this mystery is what is being discussed here.
In that very verse that you quote, Jesus said He will come and indwell the disciples:

John 14:15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you.

So if Jesus is the one coming into the hearts of believers and it is also said that he comes with 10000 of his saints, then how is it wrong to say that the souls of believers are resurrected and they indwell the living believers?

 

[Noose]

That sounds like some weird form of necromancy.
The Holy Spirit does the teaching, not deceased saints. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
People make out a will BEFORE they die, not after.

The context of that small passage is key, it is about remembrance and being reminded often.
Peter made it clear that they already know, yet it was important that he keeps reminding them even what they knew. It is more like the urge to meditate upon the word of God day and night. The importance of being reminded what we already know is the message here and it does not stop at death but continues after death.

If Peter was only making the effort while still alive, what difference does it make to remind them often what they already know? it is not like if you are reminded so often you might forget if you a time comes that you are not reminded regularly. It is the meditation in our souls of what we know that keeps us afloat and that meditation in our inner most parts is what David has talked about in Psalms 103- it is the spirits of resurrected believers.

 

[JohnRH]

Are you serious? Are you convinced that living believers will lock themselves in some rooms during the wrath?

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The punishment happens on earth. God's people are told told to enter their chambers and close their doors until this indignation is over.

 

[JohnRH]

I don't know what necromancy means but i'll surely check it out.

It is true that the Holy spirit teaches us but you must remember godliness is a mystery and part of this mystery is what is being discussed here.
In that very verse that you quote, Jesus said He will come and indwell the disciples:

John 14:15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you.

So if Jesus is the one coming into the hearts of believers and it is also said that he comes with 10000 of his saints, then how is it wrong to say that the souls of believers are resurrected and they indwell the living believers?

"I will come to you" is a reference to Jesus' resurrection.
The Holy Spirit now indwells living believers. Jesus now is in heaven at the right hand of the Father.