Not By Works

[BillG]

And yet God punished all women for what SHE DID.

What kind of a God would do such a thing if Eve wasn't properly informed? The God the serpent described would do such a thing.

You make my case Billy and you don't even know it.

You don't have a case, not one that I can see

 

[posthuman]

So if Adam was NOT deceived, then why didn't he refuse to eat of the tree? Why didn't he say "No Eve, I think we should listen to God instead of this serpent"??

awesome question

God said he listened to his wife.
what did she say?
the scene is, she has death and he has life. they are both alone in what their spiritual state is at that time. and Adam knows all this fully well, he's undeceived.

what did he do, who or what did he put ahead of God by taking the fruit?
what would she have asked him to do, and why?

Adam is a type of Christ, remember, so I think what he does is a foreshadow of what Jesus, the second Adam, does for His bride.

 

[VCO]

Well James says workless faith can't save:

James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”

So all the excuse that it is about "proving before men" and that being the only application here is false.

Cant save means cant save...

Let's see what the COMMENTARIES on James 2:14 actually say. I think you will find you have MISINTERPRETED what James is saying here.

Here is my take on all three of the Commentaries presented here: This is my comment. NOTE: WORKS IS ONLY AN EVIDENCE that your SALVATION was REAL, and it is AFTER THE FACT OF SAVING FAITH, that one can tell if SALVATION HAD TAKEN PLACE, and was genuine by works that are done in LOVE. NEVER is SALVATION hinged on those works, NOR does SALVATION depend on the ADDITION of those works. IT IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD, apart from works of righteousness.


This Commentary was Written by the Dallas Theological Seminary Staff, though it does not say which Professor actually did write the commentary for the Book of James.

2:14. Another shift in the argument of the epistle can be seen by James' use of my brothers. He introduced this paragraph with a rhetorical question, What good is it... if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? The emphasis is not on the true nature of faith but on the false claim of faith. It is the spurious boast of faith that James condemned. Such "faith" does no "good"; there is no "profit" (ophelos, used in the NT only here and in v. 16; 1 Cor. 15:32). It is worthless because it is all talk with no walk. It is only a habitual empty boast ("claims" is in the pres. tense). Can such faith save him? A negative answer is anticipated in the Greek. Merely claiming to have faith is not enough. Genuine faith is evidenced by works.


The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

This is a Commentary that was Written by Dr. William MacDonald, and Edited by Dr. Arthur L. Farstad:

2:14 James insists that a faith that does not result in good works cannot save. There are two keys which greatly help in the understanding of this verse. First of all, James does not say "What does it profit... though a man has faith...." Rather he says, What does it profit... if someone says he has faith. In other words, it is not a question of a man who truly has faith, and yet is not saved. James is describing the man who has nothing but a profession of faith. He says he has faith, but there is nothing about his life that indicates it. The second helpful key is brought out in the NASB. There, the verse closes with the question "Can that faith save him?" In other words, can that kind of faith save? If it be asked what kind of faith James is referring to, the answer is found in the first part of the verse. He is speaking about a say-so faith that is not backed up by good works. Such a faith is worthless. It is all words, and nothing else.


Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

This Commentary is by Dr. John MacArthur, President of the Master's College and Seminary, as well as Senior Pastor of Grace Community Church, near L.A.

2:14 if someone says. This important phrase governs the interpretation of the entire passage. James does not say that this person actually has faith, but that he claims to have it. faith. This is best understood in a broad sense, speaking of any degree of acceptance of the truths of the gospel. does not have. Again, the verb’s form describes someone who continually lacks any external evidence of the faith he routinely claims. works. This refers to all righteous behavior that conforms to God’s revealed Word, but specifically, in the context, to acts of compassion (v. 15). Can faith save him? Better translated, “Can that kind of faith save?” James is not disputing the importance of faith. Rather, he is opposing the notion that saving faith can be a mere intellectual exercise void of a commitment to active obedience (cf. Matt. 7:16-18). The grammatical form of the question demands a negative answer. See note on Romans 2:6-10.


2:15, 16 James illustrates his point by comparing faith without works to words of compassion without acts of compassion (cf. Matt. 25:31-46).


2:17 faith by itself... is dead. Just as professed compassion without action is phony, the kind of faith that is without works is empty profession, not genuine saving faith.


The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

NOTICE, all three of those Commentary's agree, that He (GOD INSPIRED) is talking about a person that only has HEAD KNOWLEDGE, and sincerely does NOT HAVE HEART KNOWLEDGE of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Thus his so-called faith, is lacking the sincere LOVE for the LORD, that is CHARACTERISTIC of all those who where Genuinely Born of God, FROM THE BEGINNING GENUINE FAITH. Therefore, Genuine FAITH sprout out LOVE, which WILL lovingly want to strive to obey HIM. It is not what you must do first to be SAVED, it is because YOU WERE SAVED, you will want to do what pleases HIM, including confession of Sin, 1 John 1:9.

 

[Seohce]

I am GLAD you had the patients to answer that LONG WINDED Post. I would have gave up, even though they will think they are wiser, and falsely think they have won the debate. I am sure that is why they do not ask one Question at a time, then Post it. Instead typical of FALSE TEACHERS, they will use many questions at a time, and then they gloat, puffing themselves up with PRIDE, and FALSELY think they won the Debate.

I wonder how they get around this VERSE:

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

Titus 3:5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,


THE RIHTEOUSNEßS OF THE JEWS WAS THROUGH THE LAW.


Deuteronomy 6:24-25 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, THAT WILL BE OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”


THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRISTIANS (NEW CREATION/MAN) IS THROUGH FAITH.


Romans 9:30-32 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, A RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS BY FAITH; but ISRAEL, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it NOT BY FAITH but as if it were by works. THEY stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”


“NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAD DONE" REFERS TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE JEWS WHICH WAS THROUGH THE LAW. (titus 3:5, eph 2:8-9)


PAUL’S QUESTION IS:


Romans 3:31 Do we, then, NULLIFY the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.


HE ALSO SAID,


Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith NULLIFY God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”


GOD PUTS AND WRITES THE LAW IN OUR HEARTS AND MINDS.


Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.


Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”


...NOT JUST TO THE JEWS WHO WERE CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH BUT ALSO TO THOSE WHO WERE CIRCUMCISED IN THE HEART.


Romans 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.


AND CHRISTIANS ARE ABLE TO FULFILL AND UPHOLD THE LAW IN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS BECAUSE OF THE LOVE THAT WAS POURED INTO THEIR HEARTS.


Romans 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because GOD HAS POURED OUT HIS LOVE INTO OUR HEARTS by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.


AND THEREFORE, “LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.”(romans 13:10)


1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.


1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,


2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE; THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.


Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your HEART that you BELIEVE and are JUSTIFIED, and it is with your MOUTH that you CONFESS and are SAVED.


1 John 3:18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but WITH ACTIONS AND IN TRUTH.


Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be FULLY MET IN US, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.


John 14:15 “IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND.”


Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?


26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.


17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18how that they told you THERE SHOULD BE MOCKERS IN THE LAST TIME, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, HAVING NOT THE SPIRIT.

 

[Seohce]

TO THE DOUBLE TALKERS

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

jude 1

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, WHO PERVERT THE ĢRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALIYY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.


titus 1

16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.


ephesians 5

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

 

[Seohce]

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION to those who are WAITING for him.


Romans 8:24-25 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But IF WE HOPE FOR WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE YET we wait for it patiently.


2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For WHAT IS SEEN IS TEMPORARY, but WHAT IS UNSEEN IS ETERNAL.


THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO CLAIM TO HAVE ALREADY POSSESSED ETERNAL SALVATION. DO THEY NO LONGER WAIT FOR THE LORD TO BRING THEM SALVATION SINCE THEY ALREADY POSSESS IT? ARE THEY NOT GOING TO FACE JUDGMENT ANYMORE?


Philippians 3:12-16 NOT that I have already OBTAINED all this, or have ALREADY BEEN MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward THE GOAL to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are MATURE should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have ALREADY ATTAINED.


1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving THE GOAL OF YOUR FAITH, the SALVATION of your souls.



SALVATION IS THE GOAL OF THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.


OSAS IS A FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES THE WORD OF GOD.


Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. THUS YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”



JESUS SAID;


“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” john 14:15



…” If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”matthew 19:17



“ Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” john 14:21-24



THIS FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS JUST A WORK THAT MAN CAN DO BUT HAVE NO PART, NEITHER ESSENTIAL NOR NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHICH CONTRADICTS THE FF:


Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.


A QUOTE FROM ElAmor’s POST


2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.

Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?

They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words. says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.

Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?

They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.

1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.””””””””




WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION NOT AS INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR HIS OWN SALVATION BUT AS ONE BODY IN CHRIST(eph 4:1-16) WORKING AS GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD(mat 25:14-30) WHO ARE LIVING ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE.(rom 8:1-17) WE HONOR AND GLORIFY GOD BY THESE WORKS OF LOVE, FAITH AND OBEDIENCE THAT BEARS GOOD FRUITS THAT WILL LAST..(john 15:6-17)


Luke 3:9 the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”



1 Peter 1:3-7 Praise to God for a living hope Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a LIVING HOPE through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be PROVED GENUINE and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.



2 Peter 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to ADD TO YOUR FAITH goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being INEFFECTIVE and UNPRODUCTIVE in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and BLIND, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his PAST SINS. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.


Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.


John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from

God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.


Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?


James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.


“DEAD FAITH CANNOT SAVE” ))james 2:14-26)



“LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR” rom 3:4

 

[Seohce]

DID JESUS STOP WORKING AFTER HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS (CHRIST’S FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS)?


WHAT WORK WAS FINISHED ON THE CROSS?


DID CHRIST FINISH HIS WORKS OF SALVATION BY DYING ON THE CROSS?


John 5:17 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.”


...the reason the son of man appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. (1 john 3:8)




John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


Luke 24:44-49 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”




IS SALVATION “VOID OF WORKS” OR “ NOT BY WORKS (OF OURSELVES)?


ARE SERVANTS CONSIDERED WORKERS?


ARE PREACHERS,TEACHERS, EVANGELISTS, PASTORS, MINISTERS, ADMINISTRATORS ETC. CONSIDERED SERVANTS AND WORKERS OF GOD?

WHAT IF THEY ONLY HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS, THEN LOOK DOWN ON THE OTHER PARTS OF THE BODY IN HYPOCRISY AS IF THEY'RE THE ONLY LEGITIMATE PART OF IT? WILL THAT FAITH SAVE THEM?( 1 corinthians chapter 12)


WE ARE GOD’S FELLOW WORKERS(1 cor 3:9)

SENT OUT TO HARVEST WHAT WE HAVE NOT WORKED FOR...THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE.


Luke 10:2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.


John 4:34-38 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. EVEN NOW the reaper draws his wages, EVEN NOW HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ I SENT YOU TO REAP WHAT YOU HAVE NOT WORKED FOR. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”


ARE THERE WORKS NEEDED TO BE DONE FOR SALVATION?


WE ARE TO SERVE IN THE WORKS OF THE GOSPEL WHICH IS THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.


1 Thessalonians 3:2,5 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and GOD’S FELLOW WORKER in SPREADING THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been USELESS.


Philippians 2:22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has SERVED WITH ME in the WORK OF THE GOSPEL.


Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


John 7:18 HE WHO SPEAKS ON HIS OWN does so to gain honor for himself, but HE WHO WORKS FOR THE HONOR OF THE ONE WHO SENT HIM IS A MAN OF TRUTH; there is nothing false about him.


John 9:4-5 As long as it is day, “WE” MUST DO THE WORK OF HIM WHO SENT ME. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”


1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.


BUT WE ARE NOT WORKING FOR OUR OWN SALVATION BUT FOR THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHOM HE IS THE SAVIOR (eph 5:23),

WHERE HE PUTS THOSE THAT ARE BEING SAVED AND ARE MADE PARTS OF HIS BODY FOR WORKS OF SERVICE.


Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD’S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.


1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


Romans 12:4-8 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.


1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


THE TRUE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS IS SELFLESS LOVE.


GOD GAVE US HIS ONLY SON.

JESUS GAVE HIS LIFE FOR US.

WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR OUR BROTHERS.


1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.


Philippians 2:4 Each of you should look not only to your OWN INTERESTS, but also to the interests of OTHERS.


Philippians 2:21 For everyone looks out for HIS OWN INTERESTS, not those of Jesus Christ.


Colossians 3:12-17 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


Galatians 6:2,10 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.


Matthew 16:24-28 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, HE MUST DENY HIMSELFand take up his cross and follow me. For WHOEVER WANTS TO SAVE HIS LIFE WILL LOSE IT, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”


2 Timothy 2:14-19 A Workman Approved by God Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against QUARRELING ABOUT WORDS; it is of no value, and ONLY RUINS THOSE WHO LISTEN. Do your best to present yourself to God as one APPROVED, a WORKMAN who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because THOSE WHO INDULGE IN IT WILL BECOME MORE AND MORE UNGODLY. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have WANDERED AWAY FROM THE TRUTH. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and THEY DESTROY THE FAITH OF SOME. Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord MUST TURN AWAY FROM WICKEDNESS.”

 

[GRASSESANDDRAGONFLIES]

I don't think I have ever read a thread that has attained 3478 posts before.

Ever ask yourselves why we argue about this? We're suppose to hold faith in Christ because we also know he died to save our souls. Then we argue over whether or not we can stay saved after Jesus did all our work for us on the cross.

 

[GRASSESANDDRAGONFLIES]

Good questions.
And I ask them myself.

I will try to answer them quickly and hopefully make some sense.

Firstly I would say that no amount of works will ever save us.
I have many friends who do not accept the claims of Jesus in terms of death and resurrection, Son of God.
They believe he was a moral teacher.
They believe in God or a god and hope their good works will be enough to get into heaven.

And some of them are kind, loving and gentle people.

With regards to the third question no works prove our salvation before God.
It's our faith in Jesus that saves us.
Jesus said that he must go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin. That sin being unbelief in him.
Jesus also said "The work of the Father is to believe in him, other translations say "The only work the Father wants is to believe in the one whom he sent"

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, so that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"

With regards to question one I say the works that prove our salvation are the ones that Jesus talks about when judging the sheep and the goats.

I think this is what James is addressing about faith without works.
It's our faith outworking that justifies our faith before men.

He was addressing the issue of favouritism.
Neglecting the poor and needy.

James 2:1-6

Beware of Personal Favoritism
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?

James 2:14-18

Faith Without Works Is Dead
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

The above verses are some of what Jesus judged the sheep and the goats on.

Yet what is interesting when Jesus judged the sheep were surprised and asked "When did we?

The Goats asked the same.

Difference being the sheep did the goats did not.

The sheep were surprised.
So I would say the works they did (for no reward or recompense) was a natural causative affect of being in Jesus and Jesus in them.

Therefore their faith was justified before men.

As for question 2. The number of works cannot be quantified.
Sanctification is a process.

Bible Gateway is a great commentary source in scripture studies. Thank you for sharing that with this thread.

 

[mailmandan]

Believers are those who follow Yahshua, to beleive is to do, only in modern western thinking is belief disconnected from doing.

Red flag. The word translated "believe" is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ). To believe is to have faith in, trust in. Doing afterwards is works. Authentic belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. That's how they are connected. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. Where people error is they try to make both faith and works the root of salvation.

Strong's #4100

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by faith."

There is a difference between being saved through faith by initially placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation, then living by or "out of" faith "afterwards." Works-salvationists seem to take faith and multiple acts of obedience/works, wrap them both up in a package, then simply stamp "faith" on the package, but it's really faith "and works." I see it all the time.

“faith” is word #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f., אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity.[feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Here is an example from a Roman Catholic below which demonstrates how works-salvationists re-define faith to "include works" into salvation through faith. This statement below in below is from a Roman Catholic:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments etc..

See how he re-defined faith to include works? This does not sound too far off from what you are saying about believing "is doing."

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in good works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing on the Son, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son.

I have often heard works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics) cite John 3:36 in the NAS translation of the Bible and stress the word "obey" the Son, then write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved (water baptism, partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, obeying the commandments, performing works of charity etc..) and call that believing on the Son, yet they are not actually believing/trusting IN THE SON for salvation, but in their works.

Hebrews 3:16-19, “For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. Obedience is also a manifestation of belief, yet belief is not simply defined "as" obedience/works. Your arguments are the same arguments that I hear from Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists, but I'm supposed to believe it's just a coincidence?

More and more I keep running into people who teach salvation by works, but try to disguise it as something else.

James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works or faith + works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

 

[Shamah]

Red flag. The word translated "believe" is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ). To believe is to have faith in, trust in. Doing afterwards is works. Authentic belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

Strong's #4100

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Red flag huh?

G4100 πιστεύω pisteuo (piy-stev'-ō) v.
1. to trust (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit.
2. (passively) to be convinced.
3. (also) to entrust (especially with one's spiritual well-being to Christ).
[from G4102]
KJV: believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with
Root(s): G4102
See also: G4104

4100. pisteuó
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with

so you are telling me the demons trust in Yah?

James 2:19-20, “You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead?”

“believe” is word #G4100 - pisteuó:

no they do not and I know you dont believe they do, yet this same word is used here....

There is a difference between being saved through faith by initially placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation, then living by or "out of" faith "afterwards." Works-salvationists seem to take faith and multiple acts of obedience/works, wrap them both up in a package, then simply stamp "faith" on the package, but it's really faith "and works." I see it all the time.

See you can;t get past me saying works are the right thing in the narrow path and "Works-salvationists"

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

and if one relies on Him they will also follow Him. He said "my sheep hear my voice and follow"

Here is an example from a Roman Catholic below which demonstrates how works-salvationists re-define faith to "include works" into salvation through faith. This statement below in below is from a Roman Catholic:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments etc..

See how he re-defined faith to include works? This does not sound too far off from what you are saying about believing "is doing."

Catholic also say Jesus is the Christ, so can I use catholic doctrine to discredit your message now?

This is strawman if anything, use an example of a false system them attach another to false system to throw both out...

and true faith one will do what the Messiah says, period.

Here is Scriptureal example of no faith and disobedience being seen as one in the same:

Hebrews 3:16-19, “For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Hebrews 4:2, “For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed.”

In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in good works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

None can save themselves, yet how is doing His will not trusting Him?

See this is the double talk by those on your side, as soon as one says if we say we are in Him we MUST do His will or we are not in Him this comes along...

So doing what He says is not trusting Him huh.. wow...

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Yet John says those who do NOT guard His Commands are a liar:

1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

but here you tell me doing His will is not trusting in Him to save...sounds like nonsense to me, sounds like a lie from satan to get people not to follow the Shepherd, to ignore what He says while saying they are saved...

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing on the Son, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son.

ok, so does not obey has nothing to do with obedience ,... right... or "apatheo"

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

“does not obey” is word #544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.

 

[Shamah]

I have often heard works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics) cite John 3:36 in the NAS translation of the Bible and stress the word "obey" the Son, then write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved (water baptism, partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, obeying the commandments, performing works of charity etc..) and call that believing on the Son, yet they are not actually believing/trusting IN THE SON for salvation, but in their works.

Disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. Obedience is also a manifestation of belief, yet belief is not simply defined "as" obedience/works. Your arguments are the same arguments that I hear from Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists, but I'm supposed to believe it's just a coincidence?

More and more I keep running into people who teach salvation by works, but try to disguise it as something else.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works or faith + works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Again I can find a single appearance of similarity between what you say and the Catholic Chirch, yet I dont use it to buch you up with them in an attempt to discredit...

So none can promote following His path without being a "works salvationist"

yep....

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Mat 4:17, “From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

I know I know out of context....

who would have know the only way God will hate you is if you seek to do His will... ohh wait that is only modern doctrine...

Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

 

[VCO]

Again I can find a single appearance of similarity between what you say and the Catholic Chirch, yet I dont use it to buch you up with them in an attempt to discredit...

So none can promote following His path without being a "works salvationist"

yep....

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Mat 4:17, “From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

I know I know out of context....

who would have know the only way God will hate you is if you seek to do His will... ohh wait that is only modern doctrine...

Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

And you do not seem to understand:

It is NOT what you do, that GOD IS SEARCHING FOR.

IT IS WHY YOU DO WHAT YOU DO, THAT GOD SEARCHES THE HEART FOR.


1 Chronicles 28:9 (ESV)
9 “And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Romans 8:27 (NRSV)
27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Revelation 2:23 (ESV)
23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.


Doing works of Righteousness because of a sense of duty (.I have to.), or to manipulate GOD into owing you a favor, is a pile of Filthy Rags.

Doing works of Righteousness AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, because YOU SINCERELY LOVE HIM, is of great value to GOD.


IT IS ALL ABOUT MOTIVE!

So what is your MOTIVE?

 

[John146]

cont.

Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by faith."

“faith” is word #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f., אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity.[feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

Hebrews 3:16-19, “For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

If you believe standing in the street is dangerous you wont do it...



they are described as those who "practiced evil"

“*practiced” G4238 πράσσω prasso (pras'-sō) v., 1. to practice, i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually., 2. (by implication) to execute, accomplish, etc., 3. (specially) to collect (dues), fare (personally)., {differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act}, [a primary verb], KJV: commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts, Compare: G4160



yes each will get their reward, and Yahshua says Hiswordsare the standard:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."



Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”



This I agree fully:

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”



and if you confess He is the Messiah, you would also do what the Messiah and King says....

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey



I think you for replying, it is nice to get some feed back. My main point here is that there is a BIG difference between "works salvation" and "doing His will" Those in Him will do His will. Those not in Him will not. And many verses, that seem to be shunned, if I said them without putting a book and chapter and verse number would get mee called all kinds of names and "works salvationist"

Food for thought...

Now we're getting somewhere. The thing you must realize is that the believer is justified by the faith of Christ and not our own individual faith. Works must accompany faith. Christ's faith was displayed through His life of perfect obedience and death on the cross.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Hebrews described the faith of those OT saints. The faith of Jesus Christ was not yet available to them.

 

[Shamah]

And you do not seem to understand:

It is NOT what you do, that GOD IS SEARCHING FOR.

IT IS WHY YOU DO WHAT YOU DO, THAT GOD SEARCHES THE HEART FOR.


1 Chronicles 28:9 (ESV)
9 “And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Romans 8:27 (NRSV)
27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Revelation 2:23 (ESV)
23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.


Doing works of Righteousness because of a sense of duty (.I have to.), or to manipulate GOD into owing you a favor, is a pile of Filthy Rags.

Doing works of Righteousness AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, because YOU SINCERELY LOVE HIM, is of great value to GOD.


IT IS ALL ABOUT MOTIVE!

So what is your MOTIVE?

Hmm seems you have a pre-disposition of what I beleive rather than actually looking at what I am saying...

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

if you confess He is the Messiah, you would also do what the Messiah and King says....

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Those that are in Him are going to do His will because it is right. Their spieir will not seek things that are not of Him and His path.

Ezekiel 36:26-28, "A new heart, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

Yet saying it is right and seeking to do and promoting this will get you called names and accusations against you...

 

[Seohce]

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

hebrews 5
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truthsof God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

 

[Shamah]

Now we're getting somewhere. The thing you must realize is that the believer is justified by the faith of Christ and not our own individual faith. Works must accompany faith. Christ's faith was displayed through His life of perfect obedience and death on the cross.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Hebrews described the faith of those OT saints. The faith of Jesus Christ was not yet available to them.

Generally I hold the same/similar view but I word it differently, it may be symantics or it may be a meaning ful difference any who are saved are saved by YHWH, there is nothing I can do works or faith, in the end it is His choice who enters the Kingdom. No one is going to show up at judgement and say "I have faith I will enter now". What I mean by this is because I declare myself to have faith or even fait and works does not mean I enter the kingdom, He has to allow me to enter.

Only this will allow admittance into the kingdom, Him say so:

Mat 25:23, “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.”

For me to sum it up using Scripture:

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”


Messiah says it best:

Luke 13:22-30,22 And He was going through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Yerushalayim,"23 and someone said to Him, “Master, are there few who are being saved?” And He said to them,"24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, because many, I say to you, shall seek to enter in and shall not be able."25 “When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Master, Master, open for us,’ and He shall answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’"26 then you shall begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’"27 “But He shall say, ‘I say to you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of unrighteousness.’ Psa 6:8."28 “There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Aḇraham and Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇa and all the prophets in the reign of Elohim, and yourselves thrown outside. Footnote: a Mat 16:28-17:3."29 “And they shall come from the east and the west, and from the north and the south, and sit down in the reign of Elohim."30 “And see, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last.”"

 

[dcontroversal]

LOL, OK Decon, "use" VS. Embellish, I guess it depends on what your definition of "it" is.

The first man didn't listed to the serpent, he trusted his "wife, Woman, Bride, church", that the serpent deceived. The same "woman" also tried to persuade the second man and actually did influence some of His Apostles.

I think you are missing the whole point.

I am missing no point, you made a false statement that I addressed...end of story.......It seems that you like to embellish the word quite a bit with your opinion to make it fit your theological stance....

 

[dcontroversal]

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Gen. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The serpent went after the "woman, bride, wife, church" that Adam trusted. Adam wasn't tricked by the serpent. He was tricked by His Wife, Woman, Bride, Church".

You miss the whole point because you have been convinced obedience to God causes blindness, when the opposite is true.

This is one of the top cake taking posts I have seen on this site......and the analogy made is quite ignorant to be frank......wow..........talk about cracker jack theology!

 

[Seohce]

19Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


OUR LORD JESUS BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE FATHER INSTRUCTED HIS DISCIPLES TO TEACH OBEDIENCE UNTO ALL NATIONS.


IF ANYONE WOULD TEACH THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD, TEACHINGS, LAWS AND COMMANDS, IS NOT NECESSARY OR PART OF SALVATION, DOES HE NOT TEACH CONTRARY TO THE LORD’S TEACHINGS?


WHEN THE LORD SAID THAT “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS”, AND SOMEONE ELSE WOULD SAY THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE BECAUSE “FAITH ALONE SAVES”. IS IT NOT A CLEAR REJECTION, NULLIFICATION, DISRESPECT, DISOBEDIENCE, UNBELIEF AND MOCKERY OF GOD’S WORD?


15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being ABOMINABLE, and DISOBEDIENT and unto every good work REPROBATE.


4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO (A LICENSE FOR) LASCIVIOUSNESS, and DENYING the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


...Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men….Full well ye reject the commandment of God... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.(mark 7:6-13)


...because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.(isaiah 5:20-24)


...Be not deceived; GÒD IS NOT MOCKED: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.(galatians 6:7-10)


32who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE


MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)


DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;


“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.



IS IT NOT APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE AND FACE JUDGMENT AFTER? (hebrews 9:27-28)


11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOÙND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.


“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”


JESUS HAS NOT FOUND YOUR WORKS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. REMEMBER THEREFORE WHÀT YOU HEARD AND RECEIVED. OBEY IT, AND REPENT.(revelations 3:1-6)



47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48HE THAT REJECTETH ME, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL. JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.