Not By Works

[Shamah]

Like I said the rest of Sabbaton. Not Sabbaton. It’s the word right next to it in the verse. Are you seriously telling me you didn’t understand me? The word rest there is Katapauo.

You keep saying it’s a metaphor of the Kingdom, but the context doesn’t teach that. You are reading way into it.

It says right in the verse, those who have not entered in are in unbelief. Looking just at this verse and not posting a bunch of other Scriptures please explain how you read v9-11. No other Scriptures just those in context.

Are you telling me sabbatismos is not use in Hebrews 4:9? Im not sure what you are saying, because sabbtismos is 100% used in Heb 4:9...

Hebrews 4:9 ►

Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Greek
Strong'sTransliterationGreekEnglishMorphology
686 [e]araἄραSo thenConj
620 [e]apoleipetaiἀπολείπεταιthere remainsV-PIM/P-3S
4520 [e]sabbatismosσαββατισμὸςa sabbath rest,N-NMS
3588 [e]tōτῷfor theArt-DMS
2992 [e]laōλαῷpeopleN-DMS
3588 [e]touτοῦ - Art-GMS
2316 [e]TheouΘεοῦ.of God.N-GMS​

I dont see katapauo here... am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Cee]

Are you telling me sabbatismos is not use in Hebrews 4:9? Im not sure what you are saying, because sabbtismos is 100% used in Heb 4:9...

Hebrews 4:9 ►

Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Greek
Strong'sTransliterationGreekEnglishMorphology
686 [e]araἄραSo thenConj
620 [e]apoleipetaiἀπολείπεταιthere remainsV-PIM/P-3S
4520 [e]sabbatismosσαββατισμὸςa sabbath rest,N-NMS
3588 [e]tōτῷfor theArt-DMS
2992 [e]laōλαῷpeopleN-DMS
3588 [e]touτοῦ - Art-GMS
2316 [e]TheouΘεοῦ.of God.N-GMS​

I dont see katapauo here... am I misunderstanding you?

Yes you are. The next verse is this:

for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.

Katapauo.

 

[Cee]

Curious. If you don’t believe in Christ we have rested from our works. How are we saved? Are you still working for your salvation?

 

[Shamah]

Yes you are. The next verse is this:

for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.

Katapauo.

Ok so ignore "sabbatismos"

Yeah when we honor the 7th day Sabbath we rest from our works and do His, at least we are supposed to. (Isa 58:13-14Mat 12:12)

If you don’t believe in Christ we have rested from our works. How are we saved? Are you still working for your salvation?

None can be saved by their own will or works, yet this does not mean we are not supposed to do His will. How does promoting doing His will, as He tells us to do His will even provoke one to say "Are you still working for your salvation?" Sounds like enmity to His will honestly. Now If I said "working for salvation" I would totally understand, but I never said that...

Also I still can;t get past heaven and earth has not yet passed so accirding to Messiah neither has the Law....

 

[Cee]

This really curious to me, I mean to me this is so clearly taking about a rest that we can enter in now.

For example let’s start with Hebrews 4:1

1Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.

Right in this verse the writer says you should already be inside the promise of rest. And if you haven’t reached it yet be in fear.

I mean that’s pretty cut and dry to me.

 

[Cee]

Ok so ignore "sabbatismos"

Yeah when we honor the 7th day Sabbath we rest from our works and do His, at least we are supposed to. (Isa 58:13-14Mat 12:12)



None can be saved by their own will or works, yet this does not mean we are not supposed to do His will. How does promoting doing His will, as He tells us to do His will even provoke one to say "Are you still working for your salvation?" Sounds like enmity to His will honestly. Now If I said "working for salvation" I would totally understand, but I never said that...

Also I still can;t get past heaven and earth has not yet passed so accirding to Messiah neither has the Law....

I asked you because in that Scripture v9 it says entering God’s Sabbath is resting from our works, but you’re saying we haven’t entered in yet.

 

[Cee]

Ok so ignore "sabbatismos"

Yeah when we honor the 7th day Sabbath we rest from our works and do His, at least we are supposed to. (Isa 58:13-14Mat 12:12)



None can be saved by their own will or works, yet this does not mean we are not supposed to do His will. How does promoting doing His will, as He tells us to do His will even provoke one to say "Are you still working for your salvation?" Sounds like enmity to His will honestly. Now If I said "working for salvation" I would totally understand, but I never said that...

Also I still can;t get past heaven and earth has not yet passed so accirding to Messiah neither has the Law....

Yes the Law still exists, but remember how Jesus says we are no longer slaves, but sons? And as sons we are free?

And Paul says that we are no longer subject to the elementary things of this world? The Law was a schoolmaster.

You know those Scriptures right? I’m on my phone so it takes longer for me to copy and paste them for you.

 

[Shamah]

I asked you because in that Scripture v9 it says entering God’s Sabbath is resting from our works, but you’re saying we haven’t entered in yet.

Look at the wording:

Heb 4:
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.
9So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

3588 [e]hoὁthe [one]Art-NMS1063 [e]garγὰρindeedConj1525 [e]eiselthōnεἰσελθὼνhaving enteredV-APA-NMS1519 [e]eisεἰςintoPrep3588 [e]tēnτὴνtheArt-AFS2663 [e]katapausinκατάπαυσινrestN-AFS

"whoever has entered" "the one entering" and look at the next verse:

11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

why strive to enter to not fall after the same pattern of DISOBEDIENCE if we are already there?

I made a thread on this topis its here: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/what-is-the-meaning-of-hebrews-4.166450/

Yes the Law still exists, but remember how Jesus says we are no longer slaves, but sons? And as sons we are free?

And Paul says that we are no longer subject to the elementary things of this world? The Law was a schoolmaster.

You know those Scriptures right? I’m on my phone so it takes longer for me to copy and paste them for you.

NO worries yes I know them, but what are we free from? sin? or the Law?

Acts 8:22-23, “Repent therefore of this evil of yours, and plead with the Mighty One to forgive you the intention of your heart. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by unrighteousness.”

Romans 6:18, “And having been set free from sin, you became servants of righteousness.”

John 8:34-36, “יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone doing sin is a servant of sin. And the servant does not stay in the house forever – a son stays forever. If, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”


Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.”





Romans 3:31, “Are we then doing away with the Law* through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law*!”





*“Law” is word # G3551 – nomos, Strong's Concordance, nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law, Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ, Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine, Transliteration: nomos, Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os), Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law, Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of, law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law;, metion: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general





Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?"





Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"





*What is sin, that we may not continue in it and thus have “died to sin”?





1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

 

[Cee]

Look at the wording:

Heb 4:
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.
9So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

3588 [e]hoὁthe [one]Art-NMS1063 [e]garγὰρindeedConj1525 [e]eiselthōnεἰσελθὼνhaving enteredV-APA-NMS1519 [e]eisεἰςintoPrep3588 [e]tēnτὴνtheArt-AFS2663 [e]katapausinκατάπαυσινrestN-AFS

"whoever has entered" "the one entering" and look at the next verse:

11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

why strive to enter to not fall after the same pattern of DISOBEDIENCE if we are already there?

I made a thread on this topis its here: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/what-is-the-meaning-of-hebrews-4.166450/



NO worries yes I know them, but what are we free from? sin? or the Law?

Acts 8:22-23, “Repent therefore of this evil of yours, and plead with the Mighty One to forgive you the intention of your heart. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by unrighteousness.”

Romans 6:18, “And having been set free from sin, you became servants of righteousness.”

John 8:34-36, “יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone doing sin is a servant of sin. And the servant does not stay in the house forever – a son stays forever. If, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”


Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.”





Romans 3:31, “Are we then doing away with the Law* through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law*!”





*“Law” is word # G3551 – nomos, Strong's Concordance, nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law, Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ, Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine, Transliteration: nomos, Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os), Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law, Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of, law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law;, metion: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general





Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?"





Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"





*What is sin, that we may not continue in it and thus have “died to sin”?





1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Okay I’m not going to go off on other Scriptures let’s stay focused on Hebrews 4.

Okay so the reason why the writer is saying don’t follow their disobedience is found in v1.

He’s afraid people have failed to enter in. To show it’s possible to not enter in he quotes Joshua in v8.

He is showing them that even Joshua looked for a greater rest. This greater rest is the better covenant is found in Christ.

This particular rest is found today. Not when the Kingdom comes in the future. (v7)

Entering in His rest we cease from our labors just as He did. (v10)

The writers focus is that we would hold fast to our confession. (v14)

 

[Shamah]

Okay I’m not going to go off on other Scriptures let’s stay focused on Hebrews 4.

Okay so the reason why the writer is saying don’t follow their disobedience is found in v1.

He’s afraid people have failed to enter in. To show it’s possible to not enter in he quotes Joshua in v8.

He is showing them that even Joshua looked for a greater rest. This greater rest is the better covenant is found in Christ.

Entering in His rest we cease from our labors just as He did. (v10)

remember when I told you "His rest is the Kingdom?"

Well...

If you look a few verses before that in Hebrews 3 we see the "Rest" spoken is is "the promised land"

Hebrews 3:7-19, “Therefore, as the Set-apart Spirit says, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tried Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways. As I swore in My wrath, ‘If they shall enter into My rest’?(Psa 95:7-11) Look out, brothers, lest there be in any of you a wicked heart of unbelief in falling away from the living Father, but encourage one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened by the deceivableness of sin. For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end, while it is said, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who, having heard, rebelled? Was it not all who came out of Mitsrayim, led by Mosheh? And with whom was He grieved forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they were unable to enter in because of unbelief.”

what were they in the wilderness doing? and remember some could not enter the promised land? Do you see that "rest" is a metaphor for "the promised land/Kingdom?"

also I am just re typing things over and over, I hav e said all this and more here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/what-is-the-meaning-of-hebrews-4.166450/

 

[Cee]

remember when I told you "His rest is the Kingdom?"

Well...

If you look a few verses before that in Hebrews 3 we see the "Rest" spoken is is "the promised land"

Hebrews 3:7-19, “Therefore, as the Set-apart Spirit says, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tried Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways. As I swore in My wrath, ‘If they shall enter into My rest’?(Psa 95:7-11) Look out, brothers, lest there be in any of you a wicked heart of unbelief in falling away from the living Father, but encourage one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened by the deceivableness of sin. For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end, while it is said, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who, having heard, rebelled? Was it not all who came out of Mitsrayim, led by Mosheh? And with whom was He grieved forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they were unable to enter in because of unbelief.”

what were they in the wilderness doing? and remember some could not enter the promised land? Do you see that "rest" is a metaphor for "the promised land/Kingdom?"

also I am just re typing things over and over, I hav e said all this and more here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/what-is-the-meaning-of-hebrews-4.166450/

Sure, I understand where you’re going.

Notice he says, they didn’t enter in because of unbelief? This why people dont enter in Christ. Our true promised land.

Also your quote missed some of my post additions.

 

[Cee]

Look out, brothers, lest there be in any of you a wicked heart of unbelief in falling away from the living Father, but encourage one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened by the deceivableness of sin.

Here’s a direct quote from your Scripture.

Notice don’t fall away from God. The focus is on belief in God. And it says, today, because we can and should have entered in His rest already.

 

[Shamah]

Sure, I understand where you’re going.

Notice he says, they didn’t enter in because of unbelief? This why people dont enter in Christ. Our true promised land.

Also your quote missed some of my post additions.

because unbelif, anyone the truly believe Yah will guide them, grow them, watch over them adn save them IMO. Sorry about not commenting on everything, I literally have9 word pads and a bible study program open and im going back and forth between a study Im putting togather and our convo, but yes I would say 100% the covenant by the blood of Messiah is greater beyond measure. I think the point or a point we differ on is I think in the Isa 58 and Mat 12 terms of ceasing/resting from our works means not doing our will but rather doing His will, not to be saved but because it what followers of Messiah do. I dont see the Sabbath as a "put my feet up day" I see it as a day for prayer, study, sharing, helping, etc. as Yahshua did and taught.

 

[Shamah]

Look out, brothers, lest there be in any of you a wicked heart of unbelief in falling away from the living Father, but encourage one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened by the deceivableness of sin.

Here’s a direct quote from your Scripture.

Notice don’t fall away from God. The focus is on belief in God. And it says, today, because we can and should have entered in His rest already.

I agree with that, it a really awesome parallel and usage of faith and obedience IMO:

Hebrews 3:16-19, “For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Hebrews 4:2, “For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed.”

 

[Cee]

because unbelif, anyone the truly believe Yah will guide them, grow them, watch over them adn save them IMO. Sorry about not commenting on everything, I literally have9 word pads and a bible study program open and im going back and forth between a study Im putting togather and our convo, but yes I would say 100% the covenant by the blood of Messiah is greater beyond measure. I think the point or a point we differ on is I think in the Isa 58 and Mat 12 terms of ceasing/resting from our works means not doing our will but rather doing His will, not to be saved but because it what followers of Messiah do. I dont see the Sabbath as a "put my feet up day" I see it as a day for prayer, study, sharing, helping, etc. as Yahshua did and taught.

That’s fair. Thanks for the discussion. I have no issue that you keep the Sabbath. I hold every moment as my Sabbath in Christ. It’s more that you’re free of the demands of the Law. Because when we are free we can live by faith in Christ, which I agree is living in unity with Him. Following His Spirit.

 

[Shamah]

That’s fair. Thanks for the discussion. I have no issue that you keep the Sabbath. I hold every moment as my Sabbath in Christ. It’s more that you’re free of the Law. Because when we are free we can live by faith in Christ, which I agree is living in unity with Him. Following His Spirit.

Well as I see it I have been made free from bondage/servant of sin and He has put His Spirit in me to love His Law

Romans 6:18, “And having been set free from sin, you became servants of righteousness.”

John 8:34-36, “יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone doing sin is a servant of sin. And the servant does not stay in the house forever – a son stays forever. If, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”

Psalm 119:133, “Establish my footsteps by Your word, And let no wickedness have rule over me.”

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

Im not just saying it, and no Im not perfect, but I do love His ways, when I was heavy laden with sin I was miserable, the more I walk in His direction the more peace I have. praiseYah! He guides us, we all have different backgrounds and journeys but His guides!

Psalms 133:1-3, “See how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity. Like the precious oil on the head, Running down on the beard, The beard of Aharon, Running down on the collar of his robes. Like the dew of Ḥermon, That comes down on the mountains of Tsiyon. For there יהוה commanded the blessing, Life forever!”

 

[Cee]

That’s fair. Thanks for the discussion. I have no issue that you keep the Sabbath. I hold every moment as my Sabbath in Christ. It’s more that you’re free of the demands of the Law. Because when we are free we can live by faith in Christ, which I agree is living in unity with Him. Following His Spirit.

I see it as a day for prayer, study, sharing, helping, etc. as Yahshua did and taught.

Thank you for the explanation. I understand you better now. I see this as every day.

 

[Cee]

Well as I see it I have been made free from bondage/servant of sin and He has put His Spirit in me to love His Law

Romans 6:18, “And having been set free from sin, you became servants of righteousness.”

John 8:34-36, “יהושע answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone doing sin is a servant of sin. And the servant does not stay in the house forever – a son stays forever. If, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”

Psalm 119:133, “Establish my footsteps by Your word, And let no wickedness have rule over me.”

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

Im not just saying it, and no Im not perfect, but I do love His ways, when I was heavy laden with sin I was miserable, the more I walk in His direction the more peace I have. praiseYah! He guides us, we all have different backgrounds and journeys but His guides!

Psalms 133:1-3, “See how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity. Like the precious oil on the head, Running down on the beard, The beard of Aharon, Running down on the collar of his robes. Like the dew of Ḥermon, That comes down on the mountains of Tsiyon. For there יהוה commanded the blessing, Life forever!”

Yes I have no interest in sin either. His ways are far better and far more satisfying. His goodness and kindness has caused me to desire His ways.

 

[Shamah]

I see it as a day for prayer, study, sharing, helping, etc. as Yahshua did and taught.

Thank you for the explanation. I understand you better now. I see this as every day.

BUt everyday it is impossible to set apart.'
The common accusation is "you only worship God1 day a week" nonsense.

We have to work, do the dishes, laundry, mow the lawn, etc. that is not doing the will of Yah, I havenever met anyone that sets asides every minute of every day for His will. While taking a shower is not a sin it is not His will...

The Sabbath is a 24 hour period where nothing should get in the way not even for a second. A 100% focus on Him.

Im not being rude I want you to understand what the Sabbath is to me.

If you do this every day that means you never work, never cook food, never mow the lawn, never watch a sports event, etc. Not that those are sin but they are not Yah;s will.

Do you behave like this EVERY day? making every day set apart to Him? (again not accusing you of being sinful,lm youseem nice, but im saying set apart)

 

[Shamah]

Yes I have no interest in sin either. His ways are far better and far more satisfying. His goodness and kindness has caused me to desire His ways.

and im saying this in sincerity, as long as we are all going in His direction continually I thin kwe do well. None of us are perfect but I feel like if I grow in Him and His ways slowly or fast, as long s im headed in His dorection im joyful.