Are the words of the Messiah above all else?

[Shamah]

You cant "test your theory" with someone who already has thier mind made up and probably could really care less bout other peoples opinion on things..lol. So for me to "test the theory" would be like talking to a wall..right? Lol

Sounds to me like you just want to call me some kind of unreasonable without even giving it a chance. Do you have you own beliefs before we talk, debate, study, share, etc? Yes of course we all do. How is it that I am supposed to abandon a belief that I have soent years developing with prayer, reading the entire Scripture over 22 times, some of Paul's epistles over 100 times, studing the original Hebrew, greek, aramaic, having spent numerous hours doing this many dollars on study materials, many hours in prayer, but I supposed to throw out what I know the Greek word "telos" to mean because someone never gave a real Scriptual debate but just gave one Scripture never touches on the topic at hand and just calles me a name... Come on I think that is not being realistic. What if I spend, and I did this, over 45 mins typing out a multiple post answer, using Scripture, Encyclopedias, Concerdances and Lwxicons etc, and in 3 mins Im told "nope bro wrong" with no reply to what waws presented. One would have to explain and or show me the error. Example, what does Deut 18:18-19 mean and a discussion would start there on this topic. It can go more then there but it would have to be debated because that is the rott of my belief on this particular topic.

 

[Shamah]

Thankfully..after Jesus death and resurrection..we arent bound to the law of the OT..

OK so this is a perfect example of you not debating me but kust talking at me, and I am the one who is unreasonable? What you say may or may not be so, however nothing you said touches on what I said, no acknoledgment of Mat 5:18 or Mat 7:12... I do believe we are under YHWH's Law mediated by Yahshua. but you get my point this reply is not even a back and forth on what I presented.

 

[Jewel5712]

Sounds to me like you just want to call me some kind of unreasonable without even giving it a chance. Do you have you own beliefs before we talk, debate, study, share, etc? Yes of course we all do. How is it that I am supposed to abandon a belief that I have soent years developing with prayer, reading the entire Scripture over 22 times, some of Paul's epistles over 100 times, studing the original Hebrew, greek, aramaic, having spent numerous hours doing this many dollars on study materials, many hours in prayer, but I supposed to throw out what I know the Greek word "telos" to mean because someone never gave a real Scriptual debate but just gave one Scripture never touches on the topic at hand and just calles me a name... Come on I think that is not being realistic. What if I spend, and I did this, over 45 mins typing out a multiple post answer, using Scripture, Encyclopedias, Concerdances and Lwxicons etc, and in 3 mins Im told "nope bro wrong" with no reply to what waws presented. One would have to explain and or show me the error. Example, what does Deut 18:18-19 mean and a discussion would start there on this topic. It can go more then there but it would have to be debated because that is the rott of my belief on this particular topic.

Sounds like im talking to a brick wall getting defensive when im just using YOUR OWN WORDS and holding to them..btw..i gave my opinion on this thread my very first entry...

 

[Deade]

What about The Fathers words ?

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John” (Revelation 1:1).

This book was not revealed by John, or an angel, or even Jesus Christ!
It was revealed by God the Father, who gave it to His Son.
Christ then gave it to an angel, who gave it to John.

The book of Revelation came from a source higher than Jesus Christ.
It came from the supreme authority in the universe—God the Father!


Christ was given revelation by God,
but then Christ added words written in red.

Well prove-all, I don't know how you can separate the actual words of Christ from the Father's words. Christ Himself said they are one in the same. So totally linked in the fullness of the Holy Spirit that when one speaks they both speak. Everytime Christ spoke we had a double witness.

John 8:17,18 "It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me."

What I am not convinced of is if all scripture has been passed to us untainted by special interest. Like the 1 John 5:7 addition to the KJV that some say weren't in the original. There are others.

 

[FirstLovedByHim]

When I first jumped into the discussion I did not see the poll. Great question, makes for an interesting discussion. Only the last option allows for explanation. Therefore, I want pray before I choose, again a very challenging question. Since it concerns Yeshua, I will ask Him and I know I will receive because He said so. It is not questioning His authority that is why I will ask Him to give answer. God Bless!

 

[Shamah]

Sounds like im talking to a brick wall getting defensive when im just using YOUR OWN WORDS and holding to them..btw..i gave my opinion on this thread my very first entry...

You keep making character assements about me but have failed to speak about the Scriptures presented. Thus I don;t see how I am the "brick wall" Im saying lets talk about Deut 18:18-19, ACts 3 and 7 and what it means, you have not given your view on the meaning of those Passages. Yes you gave your opinion of the thread but the is BDF and you say I can;t reason over Scripture, coming I saying "I disagree" is not reasoning, IM saying lets reason about Scripture...

 

[Shamah]

When I first jumped into the discussion I did not see the poll. Great question, makes for an interesting discussion. Only the last option allows for explanation. Therefore, I want pray before I choose, again a very challenging question. Since it concerns Yeshua, I will ask Him and I know I will receive because He said so. It is not questioning His authority that is why I will ask Him to give answer. God Bless!

PraiseYah! pray and study it out!

 

[MattforJesus]

God's words are the highest authority.

Sin separates us from God, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

God wants people to abstain from sin, but in the Old Testament they could not have the Spirit, so God had them do physical ordinances, and the blood of animals covered their sins until Jesus came, and physical blessings in the Old Testament.

God's word to be obeyed, and important.

In the New Testament people can have the Spirit, which if they hate sin, and do not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, and the blood of Jesus completely washes away their sins, giving them a spiritual relationship with God, and they can love people perfect by the Spirit, and love is the fulfilling of the law, and spiritual blessings in the New Testament.

God's word to be obeyed, and accomplishes more among people than the Old Testament, and the ultimate benefit to mankind, and God operating more among people, and His word understood greater, and His authority understood greater.

Who is Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, and is God without a beginning, who gave people this spiritual benefit, and the words of eternal life, the New Testament.

Yes, I would think that Jesus' words would have the highest authority.

Now while all the writers words were given by the Holy Spirit, Jesus words are the highest authority for it is the New Testament, and the end result of what God has planned for the saints eternal life.

Jesus' words are the highest authority for it is the highest benefit, and pleasing to God that the saints are led of the Spirit, than the Old Testament, and while the Gospels wrote of Jesus and are the words God wanted them to write, they do not apply unless the words of Jesus are in effect.

Without Jesus first telling the words and they go in to effect then nothing written about them matters, for eternal life does not go in to effect until Jesus first tells those authoritative words.

The Gospels, the words mean nothing, unless Jesus first gave us those authoritative words.

Jesus gave the words first then they were written down later.

So in that sense Jesus words are the highest authority, for He gave the words first then they were written down, and the highest benefit to mankind, and people can understand the truth of God better by the Spirit than any time before that, but all the words of God are authority, but Jesus' words are the highest authority because it is the highest revelation of God to mankind than in the past, being able to understand God and His word at a spiritual level which transcends any words on a physical level in the Old Testament.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The people in the Old Testament could not attain to the truth we can attain to in the New Testament, so I will say Jesus' words are the highest authority.

For what has more authority to have a law, or to enforce that law and it goes in to effect to punish, for the words in the Old Testament were important, but the words in the New Testament are greater for it is spiritual, and it goes in to affect to the highest blessing, although all of God's word is important.

 

[Jewel5712]

You keep making character assements about me but have failed to speak about the Scriptures presented. Thus I don;t see how I am the "brick wall" Im saying lets talk about Deut 18:18-19, ACts 3 and 7 and what it means, you have not given your view on the meaning of those Passages. Yes you gave your opinion of the thread but the is BDF and you say I can;t reason over Scripture, coming I saying "I disagree" is not reasoning, IM saying lets reason about Scripture...

And i keep telling YOU that i gave my opinion and post at the very begining..you didnt agree and we never WILL agree because you arent open to other peoples views anyway..just dont think you like me calling you out because other people have said thier views that i agree with..you dont and i dont see you going after THEM to debate..why IS that? Hmmm

 

[Shamah]

God's words are the highest authority.

Sin separates us from God, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

God wants people to abstain from sin, but in the Old Testament they could not have the Spirit, so God had them do physical ordinances, and the blood of animals covered their sins until Jesus came, and physical blessings in the Old Testament.

God's word to be obeyed, and important.

In the New Testament people can have the Spirit, which if they hate sin, and do not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, and the blood of Jesus completely washes away their sins, giving them a spiritual relationship with God, and they can love people perfect by the Spirit, and love is the fulfilling of the law, and spiritual blessings in the New Testament.

God's word to be obeyed, and accomplishes more among people than the Old Testament, and the ultimate benefit to mankind, and God operating more among people, and His word understood greater, and His authority understood greater.

Who is Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, and is God without a beginning, who gave people this spiritual benefit, and the words of eternal life, the New Testament.

Yes, I would think that Jesus' words would have the highest authority.

Now while all the writers words were given by the Holy Spirit, Jesus words are the highest authority for it is the New Testament, and the end result of what God has planned for the saints eternal life.

Jesus' words are the highest authority for it is the highest benefit, and pleasing to God that the saints are led of the Spirit, than the Old Testament, and while the Gospels wrote of Jesus and are the words God wanted them to write, they do not apply unless the words of Jesus are in effect.

Without Jesus first telling the words and they go in to effect then nothing written about them matters, for eternal life does not go in to effect until Jesus first tells those authoritative words.

The Gospels, the words mean nothing, unless Jesus first gave us those authoritative words.

Jesus gave the words first then they were written down later.

So in that sense Jesus words are the highest authority, for He gave the words first then they were written down, and the highest benefit to mankind, and people can understand the truth of God better by the Spirit than any time before that, but all the words of God are authority, but Jesus' words are the highest authority because it is the highest revelation of God to mankind than in the past, being able to understand God and His word at a spiritual level which transcends any words on a physical level in the Old Testament.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The people in the Old Testament could not attain to the truth we can attain to in the New Testament, so I will say Jesus' words are the highest authority.

For what has more authority to have a law, or to enforce that law and it goes in to effect to punish, for the words in the Old Testament were important, but the words in the New Testament are greater for it is spiritual, and it goes in to affect to the highest blessing, although all of God's word is important.

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Those learned in the Word and the Way were longing for the Messiah, His first coming was I assume different tham what pretty much everyone thought it would be, but none the less His words and truth was supreme:

John 4:23-26, “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also does seek such to worship Him. YHWH is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth. The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming, the One who is called Christ. When that One comes, He shall tell us all things.” יהושע said to her, “I who am speaking to you is He.”

They seemed to all be looking for Him, here we see they did not know that the Messiah and the Propet were on in the same:

John 1:20-21,20 And he confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Messiah.”"21 And they asked him, “What then, are you Ěliyahu?” So he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.”"

but post resurrection His disciples knew:

Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”

awesome!

 

[Jewel5712]

@Shamah

Again..my answer. God/Jesus/Holy spirit...1 in the same is the ultimate authority...

Need this any clearer? Other people have said this too...

 

[Shamah]

And i keep telling YOU that i gave my opinion and post at the very begining..you didnt agree and we never WILL agree because you arent open to other peoples views anyway..just dont think you like me calling you out because other people have said thier views that i agree with..you dont and i dont see you going after THEM to debate..why IS that? Hmmm

It seems you misunderstand me or are refusing to hear me, I acknoldged thatyou disagree, what I said is there was not Scriptual debate, breakdown or discussion. Am I suppposed to now chage my view to your because you say "I disagree". If there is a Scriptual discussion and you can show me I misunderstand Deut18, Acts 3 and 7 then I would chage my mind. How are you accusing me of being unreasonable when we cant even dwell on the Scripture at hand?

 

[Shamah]

@Shamah

Again..my answer. God/Jesus/Holy spirit...1 in the same is the ultimate authority...

Need this any clearer? Other people have said this too...

I have understand your view since the first time you stated it, am I supposed to automatically take the same view?

asking a uestion is not being hard headed and I would ask this in a Scriptual debate:

If Yahshua's/Jesus words are not supposed to be above all other prophets and Scripture writers then why would YHWH Himself single out Yahsua as "the One we must hear and obey"?

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

 

[Jewel5712]

It seems you misunderstand me or are refusing to hear me, I acknoldged thatyou disagree, what I said is there was not Scriptual debate, breakdown or discussion. Am I suppposed to now chage my view to your because you say "I disagree". If there is a Scriptual discussion and you can show me I misunderstand Deut18, Acts 3 and 7 then I would chage my mind. How are you accusing me of being unreasonable when we cant even dwell on the Scripture at hand?

How can you DENY it is what astounds me..do you not KNOW the Lord. God almightly? Has he not SPOKEN to you that you need scripture to PROVE that His word is the absolute authority? Or you just want me to post a scripture so you can refute and tear it apart? Lol

 

[Shamah]

Also I want to add what I said in the OP:

Are the words of the Messiah above all else? or Is every biblical writer of the same authority?

Biblical writer. Not equal or greater than the Father. For Yahshua Himself says the Father is greater:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Again are Yahshua words above all Biblical writers? (Moses, Daniel, Jeremiah, Paul, Peter, John, etc)

 

[Jewel5712]

Also I want to add what I said in the OP:



Biblical writer. Not equal or greater than the Father. For Yahshua Himself says the Father is greater:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Again are Yahshua words above all Biblical writers? (Moses, Daniel, Jeremiah, Paul, Peter, John, etc)

Jesus and the Father are 1 in the same

 

[Shamah]

How can you DENY it is what astounds me..do you not KNOW the Lord. God almightly? Has he not SPOKEN to you that you need scripture to PROVE that His word is the absolute authority? Or you just want me to post a scripture so you can refute and tear it apart? Lol

deny what? now your imply I dont know the Most High? I asked that we could discuss Scripture and you say this, I am very confused by this, what did I say that was wrong?

 

[dcontroversal]

That assessment does not consider the Scripture I posted, I posted those Scriptures because I believe it shows Yahshua's words above all. How do you view the meaning of those Scriptures?

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

Kepha/Peter seems to view it in the same manner I do:

Acts 3:19-23, “...For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

As does the Messiah:

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

I just told you how I view those scriptures.....the words of Paul ARE the words of JESUS......end of story!

 

[Shamah]

Jesus and the Father are 1 in the same

Well He made a statement that the Father is greater than Him:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

I don;t know how this can be an issue. He said it not me.

 

[Jewel5712]

Also I want to add what I said in the OP:



Biblical writer. Not equal or greater than the Father. For Yahshua Himself says the Father is greater:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Again are Yahshua words above all Biblical writers? (Moses, Daniel, Jeremiah, Paul, Peter, John, etc)

John 10:30-38 New International Version (NIV)
30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[a]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”


You cant seperate the 2