OSAS= House Built on Sand

[mailmandan]

Living in fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

Going through life on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security looks like this. Watch Stephanie.

That was the same roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security that I was on, prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church, but now as a born again believer, I no longer live in fear and bondage to IN-security. Praise God!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Plainly if we have fallen back into our old habit patterns of sin, and are not loving our brother, we no longer have eternal life in us, any longer.

Not true that "we no longer have eternal life in us, any longer".

I'm sure you consider yourself to be born again. Are you 100% perfect ALL THE TIME?

Or do you sometimes "fall back" to your old habit patterns?

Just because a believer is born again does not mean he or she never sins. Read Rom 7 to understand the dilemma we face.

And again, the way in which we overcome the lusts of our flesh is in putting on the Lord Jesus Christ as Rom 13:14 tells us But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Once we find ourselves living in light of who we were in Adam, we are instructed to put off the old man and put on the new man just as instructed in Eph 4:24, Col 3:10.

 

[mailmandan]

ròmans 11:20-22 Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" (verse 24) and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - verses 1-2; 25-27). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not get arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God -- but this doesn't speak of individuals losing salvation.

jude 1
The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, REJECT AUTHORITY and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

In verse 4, they are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. *THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS, SO THERE IS NO LOSS OF SALVATION HERE.*

A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead. *The NASB says "doubly dead."

Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."

Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

romans 1:32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things DESERVE DEATH, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Descriptive of unbelievers (1 John 3:9,10).

titus 1:16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.

Again, descriptive of unbelievers. Titus 1:15 - To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THEIR DISOBEDIENCE, CAN’T WE BE SEPARATED FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT BECAUSE OF OUR DISOBEDIENCE?

NO. You are confusing believers with unbelievers and believers cannot be separated from the Holy Spirit because they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14).

ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are DISOBEDIENT.

Believers are no longer sons of disobedience. Ephesians 2:1 - And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

 

[Seohce]

It’s actually Hebrews 10:26 and in Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION.

The unrighteous practice sin - 1 (Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).


So keeping that in mind, your speculation about Ananias and Sapphira is just your cynical, biased opinion.

According to your logic, anything short of 100% obedience 100% of the time equals disobedience and condemnation.

In the Old Testament, it was because of disobedience to God that God almost killed Moses and disobedience was also the cause of Moses not being allowed to enter into the promised land, yet Moses is not condemned.

FIRSTLY IT IS HEBREWS NOT ROMANS, SORRY FOR THE TYPO ERROR.

"The unrighteous practice sin - 1 (Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)."

DO YOU PRACTICE SIN?

"So keeping that in mind, your speculation about Ananias and Sapphira is just your cynical, biased opinion."

IS IT CYNICAL AND BIASED THAT "THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT"?
...THAT THEY ARE GOOD EXAMPLES OF THE PARABLE OF THE SOWER AND THE SEED WHERE CERTAIN TYPES OF BELIEVERS HEARD AND RECEIVED THE WORD THEN FALL AWAY.

hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and WHO HAVE FALLEN AWAY, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

AM I JUST SPECULATING THAT ÀNANIAS AND SAPPHIRA LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT?

acts 5
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

ISN'T IT THAT NO LIARS SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND;

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and AĹL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”


YOU SAID;

"In the Old Testament, it was because of disobedience to God that God almost killed Moses and disobedience was also the cause of Moses not being allowed to enter into the promised land, yet Moses is not condemned."

ISN'T IT THAT MOSES IS AN ISRAELITE?

4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law,the temple worship and the promises.5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah,who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

DID CHRIST DIE FOR HIS SINS?

DID ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH? YES

WILL THEY STILL BE SAVED AFTER LIEING AND DISOBEYING THE HOLY SPIRIT?

ARE THEY STILL WORTHY OF GOD'S GRACE?


The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

[Seohce]

The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" (verse 24) and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - verses 1-2; 25-27). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not get arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God -- but this doesn't speak of individuals losing salvation.

In verse 4, they are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. *THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS, SO THERE IS NO LOSS OF SALVATION HERE.*

A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead. *The NASB says "doubly dead."

Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."

Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Descriptive of unbelievers (1 John 3:9,10).

Again, descriptive of unbelievers. Titus 1:15 - To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

NO. You are confusing believers with unbelievers and believers cannot be separated from the Holy Spirit because they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14).

Believers are no longer sons of disobedience. Ephesians 2:1 - And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associatewith sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

 

[Zmouth]

People without clocks? Lol

Tu Say, but who believes that a clock uses the sun and moon for keeping time, and if it did tell them what time it was then according to picture below what time would that be?

Spoiler: Just for stonesoffire

End time

Time is the measurement of the earth's rotation upon it axis but of course it is written in John 3:12, If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. .John 13:20

And God made two great lights;
the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:
Genesis 1:16​

At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun,
shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. Acts 26:13

The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: Eccl 2:14
So what do you hear?​

 

[reneweddaybyday]

YOU SAID;

"In the Old Testament, it was because of disobedience to God that God almost killed Moses and disobedience was also the cause of Moses not being allowed to enter into the promised land, yet Moses is not condemned."

ISN'T IT THAT MOSES IS AN ISRAELITE?

4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law,the temple worship and the promises.5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah,who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Here's what Hebrews 11 says about Moses:

Hebrews 11:

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.


Moses was saved through faith

I, a gentile, am saved through faith

Ephesians 4:5 ... one faith ...

 

[lightbearer]

I think slayer means that we never obtain perfection. We are all specific members of His body with all different functions. Moving together, or altogether we are perfect. Scripture does say this in Psalms. I think it's 22 but would have to look to be sure. Am not perfect. .

Hi stonesofire,
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
(Php 3:12-17 KJV)

 

[lightbearer]

Believers can be perfect as in “mature” but not as in sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time.

Where is that verse at.

 

[Ralph-]

No matter how much you slice and dice Ralph, your gospel is a works gospel.

No, trusting in Christ is not a work of the works gospel.

You have faith in your preparations, you have faith in your belief, heck... you even have faith in your faith!

If my trusting in Christ for forgiveness is me working to earn my own salvation, then it was the moment I first started that trusting. You're saying the gospel of the forgiveness of sin in Christ is a works gospel.

What you seem to be lacking, is a faith in Jesus! What HE has done, Who HE is, how HE keeps us HIS, how HE knows HIS, and has made HIS God's Children, giving them a NEW heart, a NEW Creation, filled AND sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the Day of Redemption.

Why are you telling me to have faith and trust in Christ when you have been telling me that's me trying to save myself in a works gospel?

You people are literally telling me I can go back to the world in unbelief and I'm still saved. And you're saying that's 'having faith in Christ'. That's another gospel.

 

[Ralph-]

I believe a person is never lost as long as they keep repenting. God is faithful to keep on forgiving us for the rest of our lives.

You don't seem to understand the difference between sinning in a rejection of Christ, and sinning in the struggles of growing up within your faith in Christ. If you die in unbelief you will be lost. If you die believing and trusting in Christ for forgiveness, you are saved and will not be lost despite your struggle with sin.

God is faithful to keep on forgiving us if we keep on believing in the forgiveness of God. If we are in unbelief we can only be saved if we come back to faith in Christ. Then he will forgive us and we will be saved.

 

[Ralph-]

The day of temptation? I thought scripture was speaking about hardships and trials of life.

Hardships and trials of life tempt us to sin, or leave our trust in Christ altogether.

Jesus is speaking of losing your fire within. Don't lose your first love. We don't cast the word aside, may even be warring with the word against the onslaught of Satan, but then begin to look at the hardships and lose that burning love.

Enduring isn't what you think it is.

No, the seed is the word of God. And anyone from whom the word of God has been cast away is not saved:

" 9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide (continue) in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. " - 2 John 1:9

" 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life (eternal life-see vs.11)." - 1 John 5:12

You can't cast the word of God away from you because of trials and temptations and still have God in salvation. You would have to come back to God in repentance to be saved. And you can do that as long as he gives whatever space it is that he will give you to do that. But sooner or later he will not allow it. Israel is our illustration for that truth. There comes a time when God says, 'enough is enough, I've waited long enough'.

 

[Ralph-]

I do not use that statement I never speak about the person who has not been born again (unjustified) and I do not speculate on a person's salvation status from a snapshot of their behaviour.
If they were never justified (born again) they do not enter into the conversation at all, I only speak to the justified (born again) which scripture has clearly defined as an eternal status.



This statement is moot. Justification is eternal.

You want to frame the argument as 'no longer believes" because you think you have practical/observable evidence of your statement

in the visible church with regards to peoples' behaviour, which you have made the ultimate test of salvation, however you need to

point the finger at someone who is declared unjustified by God, because that is God's declaration on a person when you can give

me a name of someone whom God has decreed unjustified who was declared justified in the "ekklesia" then you have proven your point.

So I am expecting a memo from God on this and ask Him for specifics please I need to be able to verify......I will be waiting.

You are justified, and therefore saved, as long as you are trusting in Christ. If you fall back into unbelief you lose justification through trust in Christ. If you don't come back to it in the space God allows you will be lost.

Hebrews says Christ's sacrifice has been offered up one time for all time. That means it does not have to be re-sacrificed for new sin. That does not mean you can stop trusting in it and it's effect is still on you. It simply means you do not have to make another sacrifice for new sin. You have to keep believing in the one time for all time sacrifice to remain justified by that one time for all time sacrifice.

 

[Ralph-]

This is the only part of us that "cannot sin" (1Jn3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.)

2 Corinthians 7:1 makes it clear that we can be defiled in spirit:

"let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Gnosticism is where this idea of the spirit not being able to be defiled and, therefore, always saved despite what we think or do or believe, comes from.

John says in the verse you quoted (1 John 3:9) that the born again person does not live in habitual sin, like the not born again person does. That doesn't mean we are incapable of going back to unbelief (at least two people in this thread will testify to that). It means as long as you're born again through a continuing trust in the forgiveness of Christ you will not be condemned to the never ending slavery of habitual sin.

Born again people grow up into Christ in a new life of holiness and are saved. They do not languish in their old lives like before they were saved and are lost. They will struggle with sin, that's for sure, but they will ultimately not remain in it. So stay born again through a continuing faith and trust in Christ.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It is a deal to cheat death that would proclaim Gods hands are tied in regards to subsequent unbelief. God saved Israel but nevertheless became displeased at their subsequent unbelief and mistrust and refused to let them enter the rest He had prepared for them.

However, it is a race of trust and we stumble sometimes. But we get up and begin to race/trust again, not looking behind us where we stumbled but looking ahead, because we know His mercies begin anew every morning.

A man is wrong to tell anyone that the moment they stumble in trust, they are lost. A man is also wrong to tell anyone that although they were saved through trust, they don't have to keep trusting.

We are saved by the kindness of God through this gift of trust. There is nothing more precious that we have than this trust. We can't win our race without it. We must guard our hearts and keep the trust and keep growing in trust. The world, the flesh and the devil try to trip us by trying to stop us running by making us stop trusting and by filling us with mistrust.

At the same time, God puts tests of our trust before us with the circumstances He places us in. He doesn't do it to trip us but to make evident where dross still remains SO THAT we will cry to Him for what we see we lack.

There are many tricky things satan does. Many ways he twists it up and causes us to stumble in trust. Why aren't we spending our time discussing how he has hit us and how God brought us victory in those places, so that we can help build up each others trust? What if we could help someone else to not have as long a time of misery in one of the pits he got us in by sharing what he twisted and how he abused our minds to think something wrongly about God?

Why waste time arguing incessantly over whether or not we must keep trusting and growing in trust? Of course we must! It's what the race IS!

 

[mailmandan]

IS IT CYNICAL AND BIASED THAT "THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT"?

No, because those who are described as the "disobedient/sons of disobedience" are not children of God, as I already explained to you in post #1.543. Yet it is cynical and biased to say the wrath of God comes on those who are children of God.

...THAT THEY ARE GOOD EXAMPLES OF THE PARABLE OF THE SOWER AND THE SEED WHERE CERTAIN TYPES OF BELIEVERS HEARD AND RECEIVED THE WORD THEN FALL AWAY.

In regards to the parable of the sower and the seed, see post #450 from the link below.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...security-false-doctrine-proven.128462/page-23

hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and WHO HAVE FALLEN AWAY, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (lost salvation view, never truly saved view, hypothetical view) and have found the lost salvation view to be inconclusive.

In Hebrews 6:7, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and fruitfulness is a sign of false believers (example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we have an indication that the writer of Hebrews is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition is the fruit they bear. Verse 9 settles the issue for me. The writer says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation. It is generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again, yet they would say not in this case. So why is it that we NEVER find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue.

AM I JUST SPECULATING THAT ÀNANIAS AND SAPPHIRA LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT?

I never said that you were and neither was I just speculating that God was ready to put Moses to death for disobedience. It seems that Moses had neglected to administer the sacred rite of circumcision (Exodus 4:24-26), the act that symbolized the Almighty’s covenant with His chosen people. I also was not speculating that because of disobedience, Moses was not allowed to enter into the promised land (Deuteronomy 32:51-52).

1 Corinthians 11:29, we read - For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. Paul knows that the judgment of God can take on the form of physical illness and even physical death. *The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4).

1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

acts 5
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

ISN'T IT THAT NO LIARS SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND;

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and AĹL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Using your logic, ALL of us would end up in hell because which of us have NEVER told a lie or NEVER have done anything that was sexually immoral etc.. *See 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

Also using your logic, Peter would have ended up in hell because he denied Jesus 3 times (Luke 22:56-62) and in Matthew 10:32-33, Jesus said - whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven, yet the word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

ISN'T IT THAT MOSES IS AN ISRAELITE?

4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law,the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

DID CHRIST DIE FOR HIS SINS?

DID ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH? YES

WILL THEY STILL BE SAVED AFTER LIEING AND DISOBEYING THE HOLY SPIRIT?

ARE THEY STILL WORTHY OF GOD'S GRACE?

Regardless of your cynical, biased views, Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and there is sin unto physical death and NONE OF US ARE WORTHY OF GOD'S GRACE so get off your high horse and stop being so quick to condemn.

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

I already throughly explained these passages of scripture to you in post #1,543, but apparently you must have ignored it.

 

[mailmandan]

6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associatewith sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who "claims" to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

I do not associate with anyone who "claims" to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. I do not even eat with such people either.

 

[mailmandan]

Where is that verse at.

The word translated “mature” in Ephesians 4:13 is the Greek word "teleios." It's used throughout the New Testament to mean “perfect,” “complete,” “full-grown,” and “mature.” The verse does not teach that we will completely stop sinning/be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time exactly as Christ is. 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Yet sadly, there are people running around who are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness that claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, exactly like Jesus.

Colossians 1:28 is another verse which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” Also, in Colossians 4:12, Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the Greek word for perfect needs be understood to mean “mature” or “full-grown,” not “sinless perfection.”

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Perfect (teleioi) comes from telo, end, goal, limit and is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. So absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord, but that is the goal to strive for. Yet teleioi is also used to refer to the maturity of an adult, which is the end or aim to which the child points. Thus it denotes those who have attained the full development of innate powers, in contrast to those who are still in the undeveloped state (children).

 

[Chester]

There is no problem/fallacy......... justification by definition is eternal because of who God is not because of who we are.

We did not do anything to earn our justification, therefore we cannot do anything to un-earn it. God is the One who justifies us.

To declare that justification can be lost, taken away, or even unfinished, is to un-do the work that God has done which is impossible.

Justification is a sovereign work of God.

As well, Justification is a judicial term. The born from above person (possessing eternal life) has had his/her debt of sin paid in full by Christ Jesus, God declares the person innocent. The person cannot be found guilty again once the debt is paid in full.

Those that put forth that God overturns His declaration is introducing lies about the very nature of God from a righteous judge to a vacillating, untrustworthy, ignoble judge.

I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28

It does not really matter at all what you say about justification, it matters what the Bible says and what God says . . .

The only verse you give here is John 10:28. In verse 27 Jesus said that his sheep are hearing his voice and He is knowing them and they are following Him. In verse 28 He says He gives to these sheep eternal life. And thus these sheep that are following him and knowing him will never perish. Take away Verse 27 and Verse 28 does not apply to the goats. Those who are hearing Jesus and are following him continue having eternal life and no one can take them out of the Master's hand! Amen and hallelujah!

I have no idea how you get out of John 10:28 that justification is a judicial term and that "justification by definition is eternal because of who God is". I stick by what I said: there is no Scripture that says clearly that justification is eternal.

 

[Ralph-]

I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (lost salvation view, never truly saved view, hypothetical view) and have found the lost salvation view to be inconclusive.

In Hebrews 6:7, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and fruitfulness is a sign of false believers (example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we have an indication that the writer of Hebrews is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition is the fruit they bear. Verse 9 settles the issue for me. The writer says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation. It is generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again, yet they would say not in this case. So why is it that we NEVER find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue.

Where in Hebrews 6 does it say anything that makes it so that the barren fields can only be people who never believed and can't be people who fell away into the unfruitfulness of unbelief? In fact, the author of Hebrews will now spend the rest of the letter explaining to these saved believers why they should stick with Christ and not abandon their faith in him.