Most of the churches I've gone to for 35, 40 years have. It's reduced since left behind. Have you never seen 'refuse the mark' bumper stickers?
Rapture
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I'll try and explain from front backwards, maybe you'll get it maybe not.
The kingdom of God will reign on the earth forever. The kingdom of God is also called God dwelling place or it shall be called new Jerusalem after the end of this age when all other kingdoms have passed.
2 Corinthians 6:16
What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people."
Eph 2:19 Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone 21 In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.
The descriptive measurement of this kingdom when it is done will be something like:
Rev 21:
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. .....
...12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16And the city lies foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
You should realize that this city is not a building but is made of believers here on earth.
When did God start building this city? Paul in Ephesians says Jesus is the chief corner stone and the apostles are the foundations and then believers are being added into it one by one. but who forms the wall and the pillars?
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which you have, that no man take your crown. 12Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name.
Who are these people (figuratively called the church of Philadelphia)? These are the 144000 faithful believers who will not die of tribulation because they are faithful to God and they know God. Every other dead believer have their souls resurrected and they indwell these 144k here on earth. The reason the city's walls measures "..an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.."
So, the first fruits doesn't mean all believers will be raised once at sometime in the future, just like the literal first fruits (meaning- the fruits that ripen early before others, usually one at a time before the season for the whole crop), christ the first fruits are believers that have been dying in this end times from 1st century all the way till the end- everyone of them being resurrected and the city continues to be built.
Then at the end:
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angelsounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out inheaven: “The kingdom of the world is now the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.”
In the new covenant, there's Jew or gentile, so there's nothing that specifically pertains to Israel as a nation or tribal Jews as a people. The antichrist comes for all the nations/tribes/tongues/young or old / poor or rich and the gospel was to be preached as a witness to all nations /tribes/tongues/young or old / poor or rich so that when the antichrist comes we are equipped with the truth.
In the calculation, i have used both used 360 because the prophesy is given on 360 calendar. When 3.5 years=1260 days= 42 months. this was to inform you that 360 day calendar was being used but when converted back to our own calendar hence (360/365.25), we get to the 2300 years time period.
666 is the number of the beast who is the antichrist, and you are also told to calculate the number of the beast. So it is not just a number, it is a calculation.
Noose:
I was trackin' with you okay, until the paragraph starting out with:
After reading all that, I think I detect the point wherein we diverge, and that goes back to [basically] what is said in 1Cor15:24 ("THEN [G1534] the end"... which was covered earlier in the thread. IOW, the long time period [1000 yrs] when Christ reigns [which itself doesn't end] in which Satan is bound/imprisoned [and humans are still being born on the earth, some dying, etc]... the end of that, in this context. This is not to say that those still able to bear children/reproduce, in the MK, are "the Church which is His body," they aren't--though they may be "saints"--The difference between Rev19:7 [aorist] and 19:9 [not aorist, but where He's headed down TO]...).
I was trackin' with you okay, until the paragraph starting out with:
After reading all that, I think I detect the point wherein we diverge, and that goes back to [basically] what is said in 1Cor15:24 ("THEN [G1534] the end"... which was covered earlier in the thread. IOW, the long time period [1000 yrs] when Christ reigns [which itself doesn't end] in which Satan is bound/imprisoned [and humans are still being born on the earth, some dying, etc]... the end of that, in this context. This is not to say that those still able to bear children/reproduce, in the MK, are "the Church which is His body," they aren't--though they may be "saints"--The difference between Rev19:7 [aorist] and 19:9 [not aorist, but where He's headed down TO]...).
Those verses you quoted are generally correct looking at the context and time they were spoken. You need to note that in the new covenant, heaven is the heart of believers here on earth and not some outer space above the clouds. This temple here on earth is what God has been working for all along Jesus Himself being the corner stone of this temple on earth. So Jesus was actually speaking in the context that heaven is the heart of believers here on earth and it must start with Him.
The OT saints including David could not come to this heaven that Jesus had to set first. When Jesus died, they were all resurrected. Ever heard of the saying 'the Lord will come with 10000 of His saints'- that's what it means.
Jesus made this promise:
John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in Goda ; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”
so where did Jesus go?
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
Jesus came right back into them, in their hearts is where heaven is.
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Paul also thinks that heaven is here on earth.
Matt 6:19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
So David is in heaven now.
"...Who are these people..? was a reference to the verse where Jesus promises the members of the church of philadelphia to make them pillars in the city of God and i was trying to connect them to the 144000 believers but it didn't come out ok. i'll try again.
We know that the church of Philadelphia are protected from the great tribulation and so they won't die from tribulation and we also know that the 144 000 faithful believers are redeemed from the earth because they were marked and protected from harm that was coming to the earth. And we also know the measure of new Jerusalem is 144 cubits in human measurement of that of an angel - connecting these verses together we see that the church of Philadelphia are human beings, faithful to God, 144000 thousand in number, that will not die even after all that wrath of God- and all other saints and God himself will be dwelling in them, in their hearts.
these are the verses:
Rev 3:
7“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Rev 7:1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Rev 21:15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls.16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadiac in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubitsd thick.
These people - i don't think will be giving birth or marrying. No one will survive the wrath except these people and the end of the age would have come. Satan or death or sin will not have power over them anymore because truth will be in them. Satan will be released for a little season together with the resurrected unbelievers to try and instill lies in them but truth will prevail and that's how they will be defeated/ slain and judged by the sword of the mouth.
The thing is we Are kept out of the trib. Your interpretation is distorted. Jesus said " pray that you be counted worthy to escape..."
So we can clearly see the escape component.
Postribs really stumble over simple plain concepts
Partially correct. The AC kills the foolish virgins at the start of the trib.
It says all take mark. So if you think christians go through the trib you are wrong. It is impossible. Your basic model is impossible. The foolish ones /carnal believers left behind get martyred. Why do you think the 144k get sealed,and not christians? Why do you think the jews are shuttled off to safety and not christians?
Really absolutely, give me some examples of us post tribbers that stumble over simple plain concepts?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I don't understand something. Isn't Mathew 24 and Luke 21 a repeat of the same prophecy? TDW says that this isn't the rapture of believers but instead it's a rapture of Jews because he as well as the pre-trib camp says the word elect implies Jews.
Escape means to flee out of. It has nothing to do with a rapture. The harpazo is a snatching away by no action of our own. What Jesus is saying is to be awake and ready and pray that we are worthy to escape the things he mentions that are coming. It's also talking about the end of the tribulation period because Jesus is quoted as saying, "to stand before the Son of man." That doesn't happen until AFTER the tribulation.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Pre-trib. One fabrication after another after another after another after another.
Escape means to flee out of. It has nothing to do with a rapture. The harpazo is a snatching away by no action of our own. What Jesus is saying is to be awake and ready and pray that we are worthy to escape the things he mentions that are coming. It's also talking about the end of the tribulation period because Jesus is quoted as saying, "to stand before the Son of man." That doesn't happen until AFTER the tribulation.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Pre-trib. One fabrication after another after another after another after another.
S
SpoonJuly
Guest
Can you give us the verse that states "ALL EARTHS INHABITANTS take the mark"?
No, because it is not there.
"Escape means to flee out of. It has nothing to do with a rapture."
I agree that Luke 21:36 refers to people who will actively "flee out of" [the word for "escape" there] each and every thing that will come to pass during the tribulation period, but [and if they do this] that they will "stand before the Son of man," that is, when He returns to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. FOR the earthly MK]. This is not a "Rapture" verse or passage. I didn't say it was.
[see in context: Luke 21:27--all "Son of man coming/cometh/shall come" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth, to judge and to reign, and this is one of them]
I'm not sure what you "don't understand"... or perhaps you meant something else.
[I don't believe the wording of Rev13:16-17 means that EVERYONE receives the mark... just if they want to "buy, sell, [etc]"]
Some info on the mark of the beast.
Spoonjuly is right. The mark of the beast is not worldwide.
And he causeth ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Don't let the word ALL mislead you. The word all here is word 'pas' which means individually. This passage doesn't imply the entire planet will receive a mark but only those under the authority of and within the kingdom of the false prophet.
The word all is probably the most misunderstood and mistranslated word in the bible. When the word all is used without the article as it is here, it means, "every kind or every variety." This indicates ALL within his kingdom, NOT the entire planet.
The forehead and the right hand have significance in Islam. They wear turbans. The harlot of Revelation 17 has Babylon the Great written on her forehead. Fanatical Muslim's like to show off their zebiba.
This is the zebiba or 'raisin.' It's a patch of hardened skin that forms on the forehead of fanatical Muslims from repeatedly hitting the mat. A Muslim's forehead hits the mat at least 35 times a day in submission to Allah resulting in over a million prostrations in a lifetime. It will not be worldwide but limited to Muslim dominated countries and possibly only within the ten nation Islamic Empire of the beast.
The Koran, which according to two Islamic scholars has 6, 666 verses in it, may be required to carry in your right hand when purchasing or selling.
Spoonjuly is right. The mark of the beast is not worldwide.
And he causeth ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Don't let the word ALL mislead you. The word all here is word 'pas' which means individually. This passage doesn't imply the entire planet will receive a mark but only those under the authority of and within the kingdom of the false prophet.
The word all is probably the most misunderstood and mistranslated word in the bible. When the word all is used without the article as it is here, it means, "every kind or every variety." This indicates ALL within his kingdom, NOT the entire planet.
The forehead and the right hand have significance in Islam. They wear turbans. The harlot of Revelation 17 has Babylon the Great written on her forehead. Fanatical Muslim's like to show off their zebiba.
This is the zebiba or 'raisin.' It's a patch of hardened skin that forms on the forehead of fanatical Muslims from repeatedly hitting the mat. A Muslim's forehead hits the mat at least 35 times a day in submission to Allah resulting in over a million prostrations in a lifetime. It will not be worldwide but limited to Muslim dominated countries and possibly only within the ten nation Islamic Empire of the beast.
The Koran, which according to two Islamic scholars has 6, 666 verses in it, may be required to carry in your right hand when purchasing or selling.
There are so many fabrications and contradictions to the pre-trib view it's difficult to keep up! I think in a few days I'll put together a page listing all of them. They are endless. It takes a book to present the pr-trib view and just a few verses to prove the post trib view."Escape means to flee out of. It has nothing to do with a rapture."
I agree that Luke 21:36 refers to people who will actively "flee out of" [the word for "escape" there] each and every thing that will come to pass during the tribulation period, but [and if they do this] that they will "stand before the Son of man," that is, when He returns to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. FOR the earthly MK]. This is not a "Rapture" verse or passage. I didn't say it was.
[see in context: Luke 21:27--all "Son of man coming/cometh/shall come" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth, to judge and to reign, and this is one of them]
I'm not sure what you "don't understand"... or perhaps you meant something else.
[I don't believe the wording of Rev13:16-17 means that EVERYONE receives the mark... just if they want to "buy, sell, [etc]"]
Jesus has it right...
Immediately after the tribulation of those days...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:.. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It's a shame the way pre-tribbers have perverted the words of Jesus. Because of these words from Jesus, they've had to fabricate another return of Christ, another rapture, another trumpet, another elect, and pervert the true meaning of the Day of the Lord.
The sad thing is they can't see it and they have no problem fabricating stuff to cover up their contradictions. I say pre-trib is a bad spirit.
What is so bad about saying that Matthew 24:29-31 correlates with:
Isaiah 27:12-13 -
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
[and]
Isaiah 24:21-23 - [correlating with the timing of Rev19:19/16:14-16, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth]
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/punished.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
[note: this "gathering [verb]" in Isa27:12-13 is "ONE BY ONE" [AFTER the trib] (gathered by angels He SHALL SEND to do so, Matt24:29-31) rather than "AS ONE"-->the ONE BODY, the Church which is His body, caught up... to the meeting [noun] of the Lord "in the air"... and it is here "the LORD HIMSELF"]
Isaiah 27:12-13 -
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
[and]
Isaiah 24:21-23 - [correlating with the timing of Rev19:19/16:14-16, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth]
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/punished.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
[note: this "gathering [verb]" in Isa27:12-13 is "ONE BY ONE" [AFTER the trib] (gathered by angels He SHALL SEND to do so, Matt24:29-31) rather than "AS ONE"-->the ONE BODY, the Church which is His body, caught up... to the meeting [noun] of the Lord "in the air"... and it is here "the LORD HIMSELF"]
There is only ONE "return"... both references using the word "RETURN" [strictly speaking] refer to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH:
Luke 12:36-37,40,42-44 - "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [the meal, as I've said, is the earthly MK]
[and]
Luke 19:12,15,17,19 - "to receive for himself a kingdom and TO RETURN"... "And it came to pass that when he was RETURNED..."
References to "the Rapture" are never said to be a "RETURN"... though many people mistakenly and/or carelessly state it as such.
Check it out.
Luke 12:36-37,40,42-44 - "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [the meal, as I've said, is the earthly MK]
[and]
Luke 19:12,15,17,19 - "to receive for himself a kingdom and TO RETURN"... "And it came to pass that when he was RETURNED..."
References to "the Rapture" are never said to be a "RETURN"... though many people mistakenly and/or carelessly state it as such.
Check it out.
TDW:
I wrote that fairly hastily, tacked onto my earlier post.
I don't believe every single person on the planet receives the mark (or dies if they don't). By that, I mean, I believe there will be people who don't take the mark and who also survive to the end of the trib, to enter into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies (capable of bearing children/reproducing). These are "the righteous" [the "BLESSED"] of Matthew 25:31-34, Matthew 13:43 [and context], those in Rev19:9 [distinct from 19:7], and many other passages.
I wrote that fairly hastily, tacked onto my earlier post.
I don't believe every single person on the planet receives the mark (or dies if they don't). By that, I mean, I believe there will be people who don't take the mark and who also survive to the end of the trib, to enter into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies (capable of bearing children/reproducing). These are "the righteous" [the "BLESSED"] of Matthew 25:31-34, Matthew 13:43 [and context], those in Rev19:9 [distinct from 19:7], and many other passages.
Escape never means flying off to heaven, escape has always meant avoiding death by tribulation right here on earth. Daniel and friends escaped/ the woman in Revelation is given wings to escape far from tribulation- both cases, the escape is on earth and not off to heaven.
Yet, only a few will escape, majority have to face the tribulation and win life as their victors crown.
The story of foolish virgins is about watchful & faithful believers and those that are not watchful that won't make it.
Clearly, faithful believers are marked and will be protected during the tribulation:
Rev 2:
8And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things said the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know your works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but you are rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days: be you faithful to death, and I will give you a crown of life. 11He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.
Aren't these believers promised tribulation and death?
Rev 3:
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things said he that is holy, he that is true, he that has the key of David, he that opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens;
....... 10 Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come on all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth.
These are faithful believers that will be protected from trib', not by being taken off the earth, they are protected right here on earth.
Perhaps you are referring to a believing Jewish remnant (represented by the woman) which is preserved by God in the wilderness during the reign of the Antichrist (Rev 12:6, 14-16). Other than that group all those who refuse to take the Mark are beheaded (Rev 20:14).
Well the Rapture definitely means flying off to Heaven, whether you believe it or not. Did Enoch and Elijah not fly off to Heaven? So why not all the saints of God at the Resurrection/Rapture?
Or are you afraid of this supernatural event which is incomprehensible to the human mind?