What must I do to be saved

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Mar 23, 2016
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no cause and effect influence your decision, even your preference for either right or left is evened out
if you choose one door over the other, why one door, and not the other?
Your "thought experiment" does not reflect what occurs when someone believes the gospel because in your scenario, "no cause and effect influence your decision, even your preference for either right or left".

Whereas, when a person is born again it is due to hearing the gospel -- so there is a "cause" (the hearing of the gospel) which leads to repentance.
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
Your "thought experiment" does not reflect what occurs when someone believes the gospel because in your scenario, "no cause and effect influence your decision, even your preference for either right or left".

Whereas, when a person is born again it is due to hearing the gospel -- so there is a "cause" (the hearing of the gospel) which leads to repentance.
this is where philosophy fall short
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Define "cannot" sin. Check the Greek. It means "not possible"
Once again, those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10).
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Your "thought experiment" does not reflect what occurs when someone believes the gospel because in your scenario, "no cause and effect influence your decision, even your preference for either right or left".

Whereas, when a person is born again it is due to hearing the gospel -- so there is a "cause" (the hearing of the gospel) which leads to repentance.
Hearing the gospel is an effect of the indwelling Spirit revealing. Repenting, also, is an effect of the indwelling of the Spirit. The natural man cannot repent of something that he can not understand.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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To be saved one must obey the commandments....which is to love others as yourself. This is the law and the prophets.
To be saved one must believe the gospel (Romans 1:16). You are teaching salvation by works. Nobody has perfectly obeyed the commandments, so that is not how we are saved (Romans 3:23; 6:23). Those who are born of God "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over, ) His commandments because we are saved and not to become saved (1 John 2:3).
 
Dec 12, 2013
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How do you take those scriptures like, those that speak about God choosing people before He created the world. there are quite a few other scriptures which speak about Gods elect. How are we to understand what God is saying about them
My view in a nutshell...Before the casting down (foundation) of the world the Heavenly Father chose to receive or elect (chose) ALL who would come to Him through Christ....Having the unique ability to see the future it is not that difficult to acknowledge this view....

How do you deal with...

MANY are called, but FEW chosen?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe [have the holy Spirit] for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13


Those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, are saved for a while.


Jesus gave us this condition for eternal life, in the previous verse [context] which is to believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

  • lest they should believe and be saved

Believe is the condition for salvation.

Believe = Saved

Believers are saved.


Believe in this context means to trust and commit to obey Jesus as our Lord.


  • who believe [and are saved] for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelief; unbelieving, are no longer believers.

Salvation is promised to those who believe, not to those who believe for a while, then no longer believe.



Believe for a while = Saved for a while.



That is why it's important to read and believe the requirement and condition Jesus places on those who will receive eternal life.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


The promise of not being snatched out of His hand is to those who:

Hear His Voice
I Know them
They follow Me


At the end of following Jesus along the difficult way that leads to life, is the promise of receiving eternal life.


Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:14


Sheep who become lost along the way, must repent and return to Him, or remain lost.




JPT
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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My view in a nutshell...Before the casting down (foundation) of the world the Heavenly Father chose to receive or elect (chose) ALL who would come to Him through Christ....Having the unique ability to see the future it is not that difficult to acknowledge this view....

How do you deal with...

MANY are called, but FEW chosen?
"but Few are chosen", still sounds like God does the choosing and not man choosing God.

I believed that we chose God for many years, it wasn't until I listened to some great debates on this question at sermonaudio.com The idea that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin, sounded unfair in the beginning but as we unpack the meaning of all the scriptures which speak about God sovereignty it becomes clear that God is sovereign over salvation as well.

Most of the people who believe in predestination and election, only arrived at that conclusion after many years of studying and comparing doctrines. I don't expect you to agree with us if you are not ready, but I believe everyone who is truly seeking the truth will arrive there eventually.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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"but Few are chosen", still sounds like God does the choosing and not man choosing God.

I believed that we chose God for many years, it wasn't until I listened to some great debates on this question at sermonaudio.com The idea that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin, sounded unfair in the beginning but as we unpack the meaning of all the scriptures which speak about God sovereignty it becomes clear that God is sovereign over salvation as well.

Most of the people who believe in predestination and election, only arrived at that conclusion after many years of studying and comparing doctrines. I don't expect you to agree with us if you are not ready, but I believe everyone who is truly seeking the truth will arrive there eventually.
God chose those who chose Christ.

He foresaw those who would choose Christ, and He chose them, and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


  • just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world


How does one come to be "in Him"?


They choose to believe.




JPT
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
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God chose those who chose Christ.

He foresaw those who would choose Christ, and He chose them, and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


  • just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world


How does one come to be "in Him"?


They choose to believe.




JPT
No Sir, my Bible says otherwise......

Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV / 30 helpful votes
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 1:4 ESV / 30 helpful votes
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
John 6:37 ESV / 26 helpful votes
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV / 25 helpful votes
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
2 Timothy 1:9 ESV / 23 helpful votes
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV / 21 helpful votes
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Luke 10:22 ESV / 18 helpful votes
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Romans 11:7 ESV / 17 helpful votes
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Acts 13:48 ESV / 17 helpful votes
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
1 Peter 1:2 ESV / 16 helpful votes
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
2 Timothy 2:10 ESV / 16 helpful votes
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Romans 9:18 ESV / 15 helpful votes
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Romans 8:28-29 ESV / 15 helpful votes
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 ESV / 14 helpful votes
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 1:16 ESV / 14 helpful votes
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
John 15:16 ESV / 14 helpful votes
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
John 6:44 ESV / 13 helpful votes
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
2 Peter 3:9 ESV / 12 helpful votes
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
1 Peter 1:20 ESV / 12 helpful votes
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
Titus 1:1 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,
John 17:24 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
Luke 18:7 ESV / 12 helpful votes
And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
Mark 13:20 ESV / 12 helpful votes
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
Romans 8:29-30 ESV / 11 helpful votes
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
John 10:27-29 ESV / 11 helpful votes
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Revelation 13:8 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Ephesians 1:11 ESV / 10 helpful votes
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Romans 11:5 ESV / 10 helpful votes
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Romans 9:21 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Dude it's right there in the same verse I quoted.

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,


How can you say no sir my bible says otherwise when your bible says the same thing.


He didn't just randomly choose people, but He chose us "in Him".


How does a person come to be "in Christ"?




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Romans 9:21 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Brother, the context is about purpose not salvation.


Read what it says - one vessel for honorable use


I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Romans 9:1-13


God chose for purpose, those who would be the lineage of Christ: Purpose, not salvation.



Isaac was chosen as the lineage of Christ over Esau.

Not that God chose to save Isaac over Esau!






JPT
 
Mar 23, 2016
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The idea that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin, sounded unfair in the beginning but as we unpack the meaning of all the scriptures which speak about God sovereignty it becomes clear that God is sovereign over salvation as well.
God allowing mankind to suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) and thereby reject God does not mean God "chooses to save some and leave others in their sin", nor does it mean the God is not sovereign over salvation.
 
P

Papou

Guest
What must one do to be saved.

I believe God decides who will be saved and who won't.

There are many scriptures which support the view that we don't decide to believe in Christ, but faith in Christ is a gift that God gives only to His elect.

Most folks don't agree with the doctrine of predestination/election, because many other scriptures say things like you must obey and remain faithful to the end etc...

These two opposing views have been debated for centuries, so today we have the benefit of many good good books on the subject but have we arrived at a consensus in the Church.

I would love to see the Church unite and resolve this dividing issue. But I fear that it will continue to be an enigma for the Church. Why can't we let the Bible be the final authority and accept what it really sayin the truth.
Nothing but to be a sinner! It is by grace that we are saved from our sins. I was saved Only because Jesus love me not because I deserved it! A better question would be What should I do to be a good Christian? Love your neighbours and be like me (Christ)...
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
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"but Few are chosen", still sounds like God does the choosing and not man choosing God.

I believed that we chose God for many years, it wasn't until I listened to some great debates on this question at sermonaudio.com The idea that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin, sounded unfair in the beginning but as we unpack the meaning of all the scriptures which speak about God sovereignty it becomes clear that God is sovereign over salvation as well.

Most of the people who believe in predestination and election, only arrived at that conclusion after many years of studying and comparing doctrines. I don't expect you to agree with us if you are not ready, but I believe everyone who is truly seeking the truth will arrive there eventually.
My view is not false....God elects or choses all who come thru Christ...<--that is a factual statement...and he determined this stance before he cast down the world in creation
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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Dude it's right there in the same verse I quoted.

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,


How can you say no sir my bible says otherwise when your bible says the same thing.


He didn't just randomly choose people, but He chose us "in Him".


How does a person come to be "in Christ"?




JPT
My Bible tells me we come to be in Christ when God placed us in Him before the foundation of the world. It's plain and simple to me, I don't see why you need to add extra Biblical meaning to it.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
122
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My view is not false....God elects or choses all who come thru Christ...<--that is a factual statement...and he determined this stance before he cast down the world in creation
"God elects all who come through Christ" yes true but the question is how they came to Christ. Did they came after careful evaluation and decided that Christ is worth the risk of losing ones life for, or does God draw them to come to Christ?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”



Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Although we are commanded to BELIEVE and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision.

Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves.

The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.