OSAS= House Built on Sand

[mailmandan]

U....,

A negative view and incorrect.
Christ paid the full price and offers us forgiveness under certain conditions that we are to obey.
The Bible tells us that ....very simply..

So how much obedience does it take? How many acts of obedience/works must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us?

In Romans 3:24, my Bible says that we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Jesus as Saviour, He is Lord.

Yes, Jesus is our salvation.

Yes, He is Lord.

However, the important thing to ask ourself, Is Jesus my Lord?


Our Lord is the one we submit ourselves to obey.


Those who obey Christ and His teaching have Him; both The Son and The Father.


9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JPT

 

[Jewel5712]

Somewhere between being able to retire from service in the temple and you having to rise in my presence (Numbers 8:25/ Leviticus 19:32)

Dont you EVER give straight answers? Lol

 

[justpassinthrough]

So now you're conflating the parable in Matt 18 with the parable in Luke 15 and saying they're identical?

Sorry ... not buyin' it.

? You’re kidding right?


12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:12-14



4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


Jesus taught this parable.

Both what Matthew recorded and what Luke recorded are the truth.



JPT

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, Jesus is our salvation.

Yes, He is Lord.

However, the important thing to ask ourself, Is Jesus my Lord?

Our Lord is the one we submit ourselves to obey.

Those who obey Christ and His teaching have Him; both The Son and The Father.

JPT

I will ask you the same question that I asked preston39 (but you will probably just ignore the question) - *So how much obedience does it take? *How many acts of obedience/works must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us?

In Romans 3:24, my Bible says that we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

John is not teaching salvation by works here. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not how we submit ourselves to obey.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God - descriptive of unbelievers.
He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son - descriptive of believers.

 

[mailmandan]

Every Protestant knows this.

The point--that you agree with, whether you realize it or not--is that, ultimately, in the end, dead faith signifies the absence of believing. That's why the person who does not do the will of the Father will be destroyed. It's not just because he has no works of righteousness, but because his lack of righteous works shows he does not have the righteousness that comes through faith and is not a believer.

Not having the righteousness that comes through faith/not a believer is the cause of being destroyed and a lack of righteous works is the effect.

 

[Ralph-]

Not having the righteousness that comes through faith/not a believer is the cause of being destroyed and a lack of righteous works is the effect.

Believers don't get destroyed. ALL believers are saved. It's if a believer stops believing, and as a result they go back to the world, that is when they are subject to the coming destruction of the wicked who do not do the will of the Father. The absence of faith and trust in Jesus being the reason they don't do the will of the Father and are destroyed.

As far as I know the only difference between our doctrines is I think the believer can stop believing, you think he can not. Like I say, I respect the Calvinist doctrine of 'once saved always saved' which you subscribe to because at least it defends the necessity to keep believing to the very end. This new 'once saved always saved' that says you can stop believing and you will still be saved when Jesus comes back is a complete joke.

 

[Jewel5712]

@Ralph- ..it just hurts my heart that you arent assured in your salvation unless you continue to do "good"..i pray Ralph that youll come to realize that Christs death and saving grace IS SUFFICIANT!

 

[mailmandan]

Believers don't get destroyed. ALL believers are saved. It's if a believer stops believing, and as a result they go back to the world, that is when they are subject to the coming destruction of the wicked who do not do the will of the Father. The absence of faith and trust in Jesus being the reason they don't do the will of the Father and are destroyed.

As far as I know the only difference between our doctrines is I think the believer can stop believing, you think he can not. Like I say, I respect the Calvinist doctrine of 'once saved always saved' which you subscribe to because at least it defends the necessity to keep believing to the very end. This new 'once saved always saved' that says you can stop believing and you will still be saved when Jesus comes back is a complete joke.

I have always believed that belief/faith that saves is a belief that continues to the very end and is not some shallow, temporary belief that does not continue and withers away.

 

[tourist]

Somewhere between being able to retire from service in the temple and you having to rise in my presence (Numbers 8:25/ Leviticus 19:32)

Your answer to @Jewel5712 was rather evasive but it did have its humorous aspects.

 

[Ralph-]

That aside, for those of us without death bed conversions......No works means a faith that is not in use, inoperative.

...And if you arrive at the Judgment that way, a faith that can not save you.

 

[UnderGrace]

...And if you arrive at the Judgment that way, a faith that can not save you.

My faith has already given to me, the gift of eternal life which is irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

You change the very nature of God and believe that God is so fickle that He would throw His adopted sons and daughters into hell and take back His gift of salvation, this totally defies the true Gospel.

No one under your system is saved because it relies completely on the person to secure salvation ultimately.

 

[Ralph-]

Under your doctrine, if/when a person strays, he or she must be born again over and over and over …

No, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying you can not be born again over and over again. God does not allow Christ to be put to open shame by allowing the formerly born again person to be saved by the cross again. Once he turns the ex-believer over to his unbelief, that's it, it's over. No opportunity to be renewed to repentance again will be opened for them.

"it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." - Hebrews 6:6

But at least you agree the passage is not talking about someone who has never been born again.

 

[Ralph-]

the gift of eternal life which is irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

Show me in Romans 11 where Paul is saying once a person has eternal life it can not be revoked. I'll show you where he says the promises made to Israel can not be revoked even though they have rejected Jesus. Paul himself being proof of that.

Context, UG, context!

You change the very nature of God and believe that God is so fickle that He would throw His adopted sons and daughters into hell and take back His gift of salvation, this totally defies the true Gospel.

No, it defies YOUR gospel.

No one under your system is saved because it relies completely on the person to secure salvation ultimately.

Now show me the chapter and verse that says my believing is me trying to earn my own salvation. Do that and you win the argument.

 

[garee]

Believers don't get destroyed. ALL believers are saved. It's if a believer stops believing, and as a result they go back to the world, that is when they are subject to the coming destruction of the wicked who do not do the will of the Father. The absence of faith and trust in Jesus being the reason they don't do the will of the Father and are destroyed.

Sounds like those in Hebrews 6.Those who crucify Christ over and over subjecting Him to public shame as if one work of Christ faith was not enough to satisfy the just demands of the father. Better things accompany salvation .He promises he will not forget the hard work we offer towards His name . We are just not saved by it.

Christ is our confidence we are to but no confidence in the flesh as denying Christ .(no faith of Christ, no God in their heart)

Philipians 1:6 informs us. If he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will (not might) finish to the end as those who have endured to the end.

To stop believing is to deny our one source of faith (Christ) . Like the foolish Galatians in Chapter 3 .Not called fools as those who have no God in their heart but acting as one as did Peter in Mathew 16:22-23. He denied Christ by rebuking Him as saying he should not suffer and die for the sins of the world the reason he came. Peter was forgiven of his blaspheme. Because he who is faithful cannot deny He had paid the full wage of Peter sin, delivering Peter as any believer from death to eternal life.

Note.... (purple in parenthesis) my added comment.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not,(no faith like the foolish Galatians ) yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.2 Timothoty 2:12-14

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No one under your system is saved because it relies completely on the person to secure salvation ultimately.

There's no question that believers have to abide in holiness by not letting themselves become defiled by the world and sin . Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves and ignoring an abundance of scripture that witnesses to this fact.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

? You’re kidding right?

12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:12-14

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

Jesus taught this parable.

Both what Matthew recorded and what Luke recorded are the truth.

I did not say both were not true.

My point is that when you state the parable in Luke in which the woman very diligently searched for the coin in her own house, found it, and rejoiced that it had been found is the same as the parable in Matthew in which you very pointedly highlighted "And if he should find it" you infer that the parables are the same and, therefore, there is a chance that the woman in Luke may not find the coin.

You tried to use the parable in Matthew to support your statement "The coin while in her possession belongs to her, but if she loses it, the coin is no longer hers to spend, unless she finds it."

You cannot infer that there is question as to whether fellowship was restored in all three parables in Luke by going to another parable in which there is question as to whether fellowship was restored.

You also turn a blind eye to the fact that the parables in Luke were spoken to the pharisees and scribes, who you insist were "just" and in no need of restoration of fellowship.

And yet we know from the whole context in which the parables sit that Jesus very clearly stated to them Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God (Luke 16:15).

But you would rather go outside the context within which the parables of Luke 15 sit, point to the parable in Matthew 18, and claim all the parables are strictly directed to the publicans and sinners because Matt 18 talks about the heathen and the tax collector.

Meanwhile, the pharisees and scribes are a-okay in your eye. Take the blinders off. Don't go to Matt 18 to interpret the parables of Luke 15/16. The parables of Luke 15/16 stand alone in their interpretation. The pharisees and scribes who isolated themselves from the publicans and sinners and from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself were the target audience of the parables and Jesus rebuked them in Luke 16:15 for their poor behavior.

 

[UnderGrace]

Show me in Romans 11 where Paul is saying once a person has eternal life it can not be revoked. I'll show you where he says the promises made to Israel can not be revoked even though they have rejected Jesus. Paul himself being proof of that.

Context, UG, context!



No, it defies YOUR gospel.



Now show me the chapter and verse that says my believing is me trying to earn my own salvation. Do that and you win the argument.

It is not your believing that is the problem it

There's no question that believers have to abide in holiness by not letting themselves become defiled by the world and sin . Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves and ignoring an abundance of scripture that witnesses to this fact.

There is no question that abiding in holiness by your own effort is a gospel of works and it nullifies the cross.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There is no question that abiding in holiness by your own effort is a gospel of works and it nullifies the cross.

That's the only way you will ever abide in holiness. Anything else is just imaginary. Self-control is a fruit of the spirit for a purpose.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I did not say both were not true.

My point is that when you state the parable in Luke in which the woman very diligently searched for the coin in her own house, found it, and rejoiced that it had been found is the same as the parable in Matthew in which you very pointedly highlighted "And if he should find it" you infer that the parables are the same and, therefore, there is a chance that the woman in Luke may not find the coin.

You tried to use the parable in Matthew to support your statement "The coin while in her possession belongs to her, but if she loses it, the coin is no longer hers to spend, unless she finds it."

You cannot infer that there is question as to whether fellowship was restored in all three parables in Luke by going to another parable in which there is question as to whether fellowship was restored.

You also turn a blind eye to the fact that the parables in Luke were spoken to the pharisees and scribes, who you insist were "just" and in no need of restoration of fellowship.

And yet we know from the whole context in which the parables sit that Jesus very clearly stated to them Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God (Luke 16:15).

But you would rather go outside the context within which the parables of Luke 15 sit, point to the parable in Matthew 18, and claim all the parables are strictly directed to the publicans and sinners because Matt 18 talks about the heathen and the tax collector.

Meanwhile, the pharisees and scribes are a-okay in your eye. Take the blinders off. Don't go to Matt 18 to interpret the parables of Luke 15/16. The parables of Luke 15/16 stand alone in their interpretation. The pharisees and scribes who isolated themselves from the publicans and sinners and from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself were the target audience of the parables and Jesus rebuked them in Luke 16:15 for their poor behavior.

As you can see, I posted the two parables that are the same.

The parable of the lost sheep.

The context is clear.

The sheep must be persuaded to repent or remain lost.


12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:12-14



4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7





JPT