Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

[Slayer]

You claim that those who reject do so because God does not give what is needed to not reject. If God does as you claim, then God is to blame for their rejection because He withholds what is needed.

I do not believe as you do. I believe those who reject do so of their own volition and not because God did not give them what is needed to not reject. Just as the invitation to the marriage in Matt 22. The invitees rejected the invitation so the king invited others. Those who attended the marriage were the ones who did not reject the invitation.

From our point of view, the whole of humanity fell when Adam and Eve sinned against God and separated us from God. Every person born after they sinned inherited the fallen state, as such they would never choose to give up their lives over to Christ because they love their sin so much.

God is not obliged to save anyone, He would remain perfectly just if He simply left everyone in their state. But out of His mercy and good pleasure He chose to save a great number, it may be around 100 billion over the past 6000 years. I think that shows Gods grace and mercy to save such a large number of sinners.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

From our point of view, the whole of humanity fell when Adam and Eve sinned against God and separated us from God. Every person born after they sinned inherited the fallen state, as such they would never choose to give up their lives over to Christ because they love their sin so much.

Adam was created in the image of God (Gen 1:27).

Adam sinned and in Gen 5:3 we see that progeny of Adam was born in the likeness, after the image of Adam.

According to 1 Peter 1:23 we are born corruptible seed, and when we are born again, we are born again of incorruptible seed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have a big problem with unconditional love for all mankind.

Then you have a problem with God.

We are still dealing with the same God who destroyed the whole world by flood and only saved a handful of people.
That doesn't look or sound like unconditional love for all mankind to me, and there are many other examples of Gods hatred for men in the bible where He destroys entire cities and thousands of people out of His wrath for sinful men.

There is a hge difference, These people were so far gone, There was no hope of them ever repenting, Nothing God could have done at that point except to overrule their free will and force them to trust him would get them to repent. God Gave abraham and his children a plot of land, But he refused to let abraham own it at the time because the sin of the amorite had not yet been completed. they still had hope. there were not so depraved that they could not be convinced that the God of the Bible is real.

To try to use this example to support fatalism is flawed my friend.

Those who will not be saved do not want to be saved, so they are directly responsible for going to hell. The offer is there for all but only the elect will chose to believe, and the rest will reject it so you can't blame God for their rejection of the free offer of salvation for everyone.

lol. So they will not want, yet they have no ability to want. so how can you say they will never want, thus sent themselves to hell, since there is no way possible for them to ever want in the first place?

They did not send themselves to hell because of unbelief, they were forced to continue in unbelief, thus God condemned them with no hope of salvation even if they wanted.

God should destroy the whole world with fire and brimstone right now and send everyone to hell, that would be what we all deserve. But out of His sovereign love He has decided to save many whom He loves unconditionally.

the first part your right.

But the second part is flawed and gives Gods character a flaw and calls it into question. Again, You have him showing conditional love to certain people. not unconditional love to all. As a truly fair and loving God would do.

You should let go of your fear. You trusting God freely to save you because you realize you have no power to save yourself is not earning your salvation. It is you recieving a gift, that God has offered you.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

In agreement that salvation is wholly due to God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness.

I don't think you understand 1 Cor 2:14 or Dan 4:35 or John 6:37 or John 6:39.

Jesus died for all mankind. Just because God allows mankind to reject His precious gift does not mean Jesus did not die for all.

You are ignoring these scriptures because you can not accept that God does not love all mankind and are holding on to your wanting to believe that God just could not make such statements like the scriptures above. God saw by his foreknowledge that no man would seek him and therefore choose some to have his Son cleanse them of sin, so he would have someone to praise him. God was not unfair in not choosing all mankind, because the whole human race would have gone to hell. God does accomplish ALL of his will, and if it were his will to save all mankind, he would have done it, because no man can stay his hand.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What did God want when He told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

If it was God's will that Adam not eat, then why did Adam eat?

If it was God's will that Adam eat, then why did God tell Adam not to eat?





I'm not explaining anything away. I read the context within which the verse sits (something you are hesitant to do because it does not support your erroneous belief that salvation is the issue when the issue is that God gives rulership in the earth to whoever He wants - Dan 4:25).





In agreement that God works all things together for good. Look what He did with Passover. 1 Cor 2:8 tells us if the princes of this world had known the mystery, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But they did not know the mystery, and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ endured the cross, despising the shame, and God has given Him the name which is above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow.





Nope. I do not limit the power of God. If anyone limits God's power, it's the one who claims God cannot save all mankind and that Jesus' sacrifice was insufficient to cover all mankind. Those who end up in the lake of fire do so because they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and rejected God's gracious call to them.

I did not say that God can not save all mankind. You are misstating my comment. I said that God can save all that he wants to save. You are completely dismissing John 6:37. It plainly states that "all that the Father giveth me". Jesus said of those he gave him "I will in no wise cast out". Did God give him all mankind? If Jesus did not cast any out, will all mankind go to heaven? I believe that God does allow man to be free to choose anything he wants to choose pertaining to how he wants to live his life here on earth and when his children make wrong choices God chastens them, but God, in his sovereignty, chooses man's eternal destiny. My father, when I was young, punished me for my wrong choices, but I was still his son, and he was not happy with me at that time, the same as my heavenly Father.

 

[Slayer]

Adam was created in the image of God (Gen 1:27).

Adam sinned and in Gen 5:3 we see that progeny of Adam was born in the likeness, after the image of Adam.

According to 1 Peter 1:23 we are born corruptible seed, and when we are born again, we are born again of incorruptible seed.

That's all well and good as long as you admit that you still remain corrupt, even after you were born again of incorruptible seed.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are ignoring these scriptures because you can not accept that God does not love all mankind and are holding on to your wanting to believe that God just could not make such statements like the scriptures above. God saw by his foreknowledge that no man would seek him and therefore choose some to have his Son cleanse them of sin, so he would have someone to praise him. God was not unfair in not choosing all mankind, because the whole human race would have gone to hell. God does accomplish ALL of his will, and if it were his will to save all mankind, he would have done it, because no man can stay his hand.

I am not ignoring Scripture.

You do not understand the difference between the Greek pas ("all") used in John 3:16 and the Greek pas ("all") used in John 6:37, 39.

You conflate the use in John 3 with the use in John 6.

You ignore the fact that Thayer's has been manipulated to support a doctrine never intended by Thayer or God.

I have shown you the error in the later editions of Thayer's and you have yet to acknowledge there is any manipulation going on.

I have shown you that Dan 4 is unrelated to salvation and you reject. You pull vs 35 out of the context within which it sits and hold it up as support for your erroneous doctrine.

If anyone does not understand 1 Cor 2:14, it is one who does not allow God to love ALL, even though God knows some reject Him and will find themselves cast into the lake of fire.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God saw by his foreknowledge that no man would seek him and therefore choose some to have his Son cleanse them of sin, so he would have someone to praise him.

Or, God saw in His foreknowledge the fall of man and, therefore, He devised the plan of redemption before the foundation of the world, holds it out to ALL and reveals His eternal power and Godhead to ALL. Those who reject are without excuse (Rom 1:18-20).

God was not unfair in not choosing all mankind, because the whole human race would have gone to hell. God does accomplish ALL of his will, and if it were his will to save all mankind, he would have done it, because no man can stay his hand.

So when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was it God's will?

If it was God's will to have Adam eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, why did God tell Adam not to eat in Gen 2:17?

Your assertion has no merit and the Bible falls apart in the first couple of chapters.

 

[Slayer]

I am not ignoring Scripture.

You do not understand the difference between the Greek pas ("all") used in John 3:16 and the Greek pas ("all") used in John 6:37, 39.

You conflate the use in John 3 with the use in John 6.

You ignore the fact that Thayer's has been manipulated to support a doctrine never intended by Thayer or God.

I have shown you the error in the later editions of Thayer's and you have yet to acknowledge there is any manipulation going on.

I have shown you that Dan 4 is unrelated to salvation and you reject. You pull vs 35 out of the context within which it sits and hold it up as support for your erroneous doctrine.

If anyone does not understand 1 Cor 2:14, it is one who does not allow God to love ALL, even though God knows some reject Him and will find themselves cast into the lake of fire.

I'm one of those who has great difficulty believing that God loves all, then turns around and casts many of His loved ones into the lake of fire. I just can't accept the notion that a God who loves someone would cast them into the lake of fire, it's seems to be an oxymoron.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I did not say that God can not save all mankind. You are misstating my comment. I said that God can save all that he wants to save. You are completely dismissing John 6:37. It plainly states that "all that the Father giveth me". Jesus said of those he gave him "I will in no wise cast out". Did God give him all mankind? If Jesus did not cast any out, will all mankind go to heaven?

I am not dismissing John 6:37. I disagree with your doctrine.

You claim God gives only those He chooses to give.

I claim God's desire is that ALL would be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4) and those given are the ones who do not reject.

I believe that God does allow man to be free to choose anything he wants to choose pertaining to how he wants to live his life here on earth

You do not allow those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness to reject God when He reveals His eternal power and Godhead. Under your doctrine, they have no choice but to reject, which given them an excuse - even though you won't admit it and hide behind your "free" spot - "God done it". Reminds me of the TODDI defense - the other dude did it ...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That's all well and good as long as you admit that you still remain corrupt, even after you were born again of incorruptible seed.

I am fully aware that we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us (2 Cor 4:7) and that in this lifetime we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face, now we know in part, but then we shall be known even as also we are known (1 Cor 13:12).

 

[1ofthem]

Yes, Isn't that what the scripture says...
1 Timothy 2
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I'm one of those who has great difficulty believing that God loves all, then turns around and casts many of His loved ones into the lake of fire. I just can't accept the notion that a God who loves someone would cast them into the lake of fire, it's seems to be an oxymoron.

And I'm one who has great difficulty believing God would require something of people, not provide the means for some people to meet the requirement, tell them they are without excuse, and cast them into the lake of fire.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I am not ignoring Scripture.

You do not understand the difference between the Greek pas ("all") used in John 3:16 and the Greek pas ("all") used in John 6:37, 39.

You conflate the use in John 3 with the use in John 6.

You ignore the fact that Thayer's has been manipulated to support a doctrine never intended by Thayer or God.

I have shown you the error in the later editions of Thayer's and you have yet to acknowledge there is any manipulation going on.

I have shown you that Dan 4 is unrelated to salvation and you reject. You pull vs 35 out of the context within which it sits and hold it up as support for your erroneous doctrine.

If anyone does not understand 1 Cor 2:14, it is one who does not allow God to love ALL, even though God knows some reject Him and will find themselves cast into the lake of fire.

That sure is an amusing way of explaining 1 Cor 2:14. Like I said before, no one has analyzed it yet! If you believe the "ALL" in John 6:37 & 39 means all mankind, then, how do you interpret "I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT" and "I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING" ? It sounds like Jesus said that he was going to save all that was given him. God is all powerful and accomplishes all his will. It was God's will to allow man to have free will in how that man wanted to live his life here on earth, but his eternal destiny is God's choice.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I am not dismissing John 6:37. I disagree with your doctrine.

You claim God gives only those He chooses to give.

I claim God's desire is that ALL would be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4) and those given are the ones who do not reject.





You do not allow those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness to reject God when He reveals His eternal power and Godhead. Under your doctrine, they have no choice but to reject, which given them an excuse - even though you won't admit it and hide behind your "free" spot - "God done it". Reminds me of the TODDI defense - the other dude did it ...

All scripture must harmonize and if they do not, you do not understand Christ's doctrine. I can make this scripture harmonize by interpreting the "ALL MEN" the right way in saying it has reference to "ALL OF THE ELECT MEN". Now see if you can harmonize 1 Cor 2:14. There is a deliverance ( salvation ) when a child of God comes to a knowledge of the truth. Same inference in Romans 10, when Paul is talking to some people of Israel and said they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge and were going about trying to establish their own righteousness by the works of the law, as you and many others on this forum are trying to do.

 

[pottersclay]

If a person is going to teach others about the kingdom then they must become informed what the kingdom of God is and what is the will of God.

The few are not the saved...but those who enter into life in this time. We are talking about the saints...those who rule over the nations with Christ. So then the few are the ones who are like Christ. The gospel is not about salvation as many suppose salvation to be...but about glory. It is the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

Only a few will taste the wonders of the depths of God.

How many walk in the Spirit in our time? How many walk in resurrection power above sin? Many? Or very few?

Does that mean that if you are not perfect in Christ you can't be saved??

That is not the point of the gospel. God is trying to get us interested in what HE is interested in. He is trying to transform us....but most people just want a salvation status added on to their carnal lives.

Many will be cast into the lake of fire and die there. This is the second death.

Again this is for the sons of God. The many are not lost but are simply not able to handle the challenges that God wants His people to master.

• 
  

The remnant of Israel. These are the holy ones.




The minimum standard in the kingdom of God is that we love others as ourselves. If we do this we will be saved. Now that is very hard for a modern believer to hear because the truth is really quite unknown in our time. But the law of righteousness continues to be in effect. It says God so loved the world....not God so wanted to prove men are incapable of loving God or others.

So then God is easy to please but hard to satisfy.

A Christian who claims to be a follower of Christ will be judged by a very hard standard...that of holiness.

A person who is humble and claims nothing will be judged easier.

According to how we judge and claim things...so will our own judgment be. This truth is basically either ignored or unknown.

So then many righteous will be saved in the nations....the meek, the loving, the merciful, the repentant...etc

God is love and very merciful.

But to those who claim much or have received much...the judgment will be harder. To whom much is given more is required.

But who understands these things? Who understands God's ways?

Wow where is it that the saved are judged???? In fact the ones who return with Christ are to judge.
The saved are not appointed to wrath
If you are in Christ (born again) your not judged.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Or, God saw in His foreknowledge the fall of man and, therefore, He devised the plan of redemption before the foundation of the world, holds it out to ALL and reveals His eternal power and Godhead to ALL. Those who reject are without excuse (Rom 1:18-20).





So when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was it God's will?

If it was God's will to have Adam eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, why did God tell Adam not to eat in Gen 2:17?

Your assertion has no merit and the Bible falls apart in the first couple of chapters.

No, it was not God's will that Adam eat of the tree. It also is God's will to allow man to have a free will as to how that man wants to live his life here on earth, but eternal salvation for man is God's choice.

 

[Latour]

Wow where is it that the saved are judged???? In fact the ones who return with Christ are to judge.
The saved are not appointed to wrath
If you are in Christ (born again) your not judged.

2 Cor. 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That sure is an amusing way of explaining 1 Cor 2:14. Like I said before, no one has analyzed it yet! If you believe the "ALL" in John 6:37 & 39 means all mankind, then, how do you interpret "I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT" and "I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING" ? It sounds like Jesus said that he was going to save all that was given him. God is all powerful and accomplishes all his will. It was God's will to allow man to have free will in how that man wanted to live his life here on earth, but his eternal destiny is God's choice.

All scripture must harmonize and if they do not, you do not understand Christ's doctrine. I can make this scripture harmonize by interpreting the "ALL MEN" the right way in saying it has reference to "ALL OF THE ELECT MEN".

You have to interpret it that way because you are steeped in calvinism.

I do not believe “ALL” in John 6:37 & 39 means all mankind.

John 6:37 - the word “ALL” (Gr. pan) is singular and signifies; the whole of the object qualified. In John 6:37 and 39 the word “ALL” is qualified by all the Father giveth

The Father gives to Jesus all those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness (i.e. those who confess Jesus Christ is Lord and who believe God raised Jesus from the dead).

1 Timothy 2:4 - the word “ALL” (Gr. pantas) is plural and refers to all things constituting the whole. ALL men. There is no further qualifying description as in John 6:37, 39. Just all men with no distinction as to whether they are believers or unbelievers.

According to 1 Tim 2:4, God's desire is that all mankind would be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

However, because some suppress the truth in unrighteousness, only some believe to the saving of their souls. Those who are saved are the ones who constitute the "ALL" given by the father referred to in John 6:37, 39.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

No, it was not God's will that Adam eat of the tree. It also is God's will to allow man to have a free will as to how that man wants to live his life here on earth, but eternal salvation for man is God's choice.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God has chosen to save those who believe.