Is Messiah,(The Anointed One) the Father?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
Nonsense. This shows how clueless these "scholars" are. I can discern the gnostic ideas in the Gospel of Thomas. Why don't you list these "scholars" names so I can research them.

1) Marvin Meyer
Professor
Marvin W. Meyer was a scholar of religion and a tenured professor at Chapman University, in Orange, California. He was the Griset Professor of Bible and Christian Studies at Chapman University and Director of the Albert Schweitzer Institute.


2) Elaine Pagels
Professor
Elaine Pagels, née Hiesey, is an American religious historian who writes on the Gnostic Gospels. She is the Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University.


3) Nicholas Perrin
Nicholas Perrin is the Franklin S. Dyrness Professor of Biblical Studies at Wheaton College, Illinois. His work focuses on the New Testament and early Christianity. Perrin has published on the Gospel of Thomas and proposed the theory that Thomas is dependent on Tatian's Diatessaron.

Diatessaron of Tatian
Twenty years after Tatian's harmony, Irenaeus expressly proclaimed the authoritative character of the four gospels. It is unclear whether Tatian intended the Diatessaron to supplement or replace the four separate gospels; but both outcomes came to pass in different churches.

Nicholas Perrin claims Thomas relates to the 4 Gospels and that Irenaus in the late first century tried to add Thomas to the Gospels!!

3A) Irenaeus
Cleric

Irenaeus was a Greek cleric noted for his role in guiding and expanding Christian communities in what is now the south of France and, more widely, for the development of Christian theology by combatting heresy and defining orthodoxy.


4)
James M. Robinson
American scholar
1532826977777.jpeg
James McConkey Robinson was an American scholar who served as Professor Emeritus of Religion at Claremont Graduate University, Claremont, California.


5)
John D. Turner
Professor
1532827209550.jpeg
John D. Turner is a professor of religious studies at the University of Nebraska. He is well known for his translations of the Nag Hammadi library


6)
Helmut Koester
American-German scholar
1532827479016.jpeg
Helmut Koester was a German-born American scholar of the New Testament and early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School.


7)
Raymond E. Brown
1532828502460.jpeg
Raymond Edward Brown SS was an American Catholic priest, a member of the Sulpician Fathers and a [prominent biblical scholar].






These are just 7 of the 20 involved scholars claiming Thomas is not to be considered Gnostic!!
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
These are just 7 of the 20 involved scholars claiming Thomas is not to be considered Gnostic!!
You're obviously getting this info from somewhere. Why don't you post the link to it so I can read it.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
1) Marvin Meyer
Professor
Marvin W. Meyer was a scholar of religion and a tenured professor at Chapman University, in Orange, California. He was the Griset Professor of Bible and Christian Studies at Chapman University and Director of the Albert Schweitzer Institute.
This guy's a linguist who likes to sell books. He just comes up with ideas he can't support, and stupid, gullible people call it research.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
2) Elaine Pagels
Professor
Elaine Pagels, née Hiesey, is an American religious historian who writes on the Gnostic Gospels. She is the Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University.
Another book seller. These folks just imagine things they can't prove or support in any way.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
These experts don't even mention that various early church fathers wrote that the gospel of Thomas was a forgery by the Manichaean gnostics. I think their gig is to sell books that suggest the Gospel of Thomas is not gnostic to make it more appealing to the Christian world so they can sell more books. Why else leave out such incriminating evidence?
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
From my upbringing I would have continued to believe that Messiah is the Father, (YHWH).
From my experience with study and great inner examination I have come to believe that Messiah is not the Father; though he can not be separated from the Father.
Let me explain...
Elohim is a Hebrew word that I was not familiar with for the beginning of my walk. Even after hearing about it I knew very little to justify my personally held belief that Messiah is God.
Elohim is the plural form of Elohi which we know as God. That is in Genesis we see a plural "Elohi",(God). This is were things like "let us create" comes from. I believe that Messiah did create all things and that is to say the Father created all things through Messiah as we find in scripture.
I have found it a difficult thing at times to uncover a truth that knocks over my entire cart of apples. However because the Truth shall make you free I carefully pick them up and put them in order for scriptures sake. Sometimes I find a bad apple that puts the whole cart in jeopardy so I toss it out.
When we read, Psalm 82:6 "you are Elohim" and Messiah's allegorical reference to it I must question it. Surly he didn't mean I am the Father because my sin has definitely shown that is not so.
It is written that we are slaves to sin. Romans 6 shows us that in Messiah we are no longer enslaved by sin. It shows us that we are to be slaves to righteousness,(The Word of Elohim). Messiah made a reference to the children of the devil and the children of his Father. He said that the children of the devil do what their father wants, and the children of Elohim do what Messiah's Father instructs.
So back to the word Elohim. It is a fascinating word because in it Dwell not only the children of the Father but also the innumerable host of the Kingdom of Heaven. In this word we are known as the son's of the Father, as well as obedient followers of the way. We are both god and we belong to the Father. We can not however by our own integrity become like God. We must trust in the Holy One of Elohim for our redemption to come. When that day comes we will be changed in a moment to be as Messiah is. Until then he has left us a teacher and comforter to direct our feet to the path of light and that path is written for all to see. In the testimony of those who came before us we find the Father's instructions in righteousness. It is so difficult for any to see because for so long we have fought tooth and nail to deny that truth. That we are to forsake the world and live for truth when we become "saved". Believe on the Messiah and guard his ways friends. This is how we know we are on the path towards redemption. So many times I have been to various churches to find NO peace in the congregation. When I bring this up they call me a legalist going to hell. Or they bring up "do you put yourself under the law"... I don't want to condemn anyone because I have been humbled by the way. I see my sin laid before me and weep because of what I have done. However continued on to hope for the Love of Elohim and His Faithfulness I have found sanctification through applying the word of Elohim. My prayer is for you also to seek understanding and find truth, peace, and the better way.
Shalom in Messiah Y'shua John Talmid
M...,

NO.

Proof;
G-d has always been..not Christ.
G-d created all and man......not Christ.
Christ was born of a earthly virgin birth...not G-d.
Christ died on the cross for our sins.......not G-d.
Christ ascended up from the earth...G-d did not.
Christ does not know when His 2nd advent will be ......G-d does.
Christ will reign on the earth for one thousand years ...G-d will not.

Depending on the assignment of duties by G-d......they can be the same.
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
This guy's a linguist who likes to sell books. He just comes up with ideas he can't support, and stupid, gullible people call it research.

He is listed as once being a professor of Chapman University in the Religion Department.

And you don't want to accept Thomas, I get it.
So as a typical denier, it is obvious of your witch hunt.

Still don't phase me one bit what you think!!
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
Another book seller. These folks just imagine things they can't prove or support in any way.

She is registered as a professor at Princeton in the Religion Department.

And you don't want to accept Thomas, I get it.
So as a typical denier, it is obvious of your witch hunt.

Still don't phase me one bit what you think!!
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
You're not being completely honest. Marvin Meyer says it contains incipient gnosticism. I would agree with that.

"I [Marvin Meyer] prefer to consider the Gospel of Thomas to be a gospel with an incipient gnostic perspective."​

You do realize that incipient means in the beginning stages and nothing more?

Maybe you do not!!
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
These experts don't even mention that various early church fathers wrote that the gospel of Thomas was a forgery by the Manichaean gnostics. I think their gig is to sell books that suggest the Gospel of Thomas is not gnostic to make it more appealing to the Christian world so they can sell more books. Why else leave out such incriminating evidence?

That's because they don't believe the church fathers wrote it!!

Your source is incorrect!!
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
M...,

NO.

Proof;
G-d has always been..not Christ.
G-d created all and man......not Christ.
Christ was born of a earthly virgin birth...not G-d.
Christ died on the cross for our sins.......not G-d.
Christ ascended up from the earth...G-d did not.
Christ does not know when His 2nd advent will be ......G-d does.
Christ will reign on the earth for one thousand years ...G-d will not.

Depending on the assignment of duties by G-d......they can be the same.

You are aware the seed was planted by the hand of God into Mary's womb?
This means Christ HAS NO DNA from Mary, none, nada, 100% God!!

Think of it as in vitro!!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
Scholars claim that has a hidden meaning to it, what you just posted. They claim that is how Matthew and Luke was written before it was interpreted. I am therefore claiming, if Thomas was properly interpreted, it would be Gospel!!
There is no need to *properly interpret* the Gospel of Thomas. That would be the same as saying it is necessary to properly interpret Grimm's Fairy Tales.
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
There is no need to *properly interpret* the Gospel of Thomas. That would be the same as saying it is necessary to properly interpret Grimm's Fairy Tales.

Do you think then the original Gospels we have (Matthew-Mark-John-Luke) have not been interpreted? Some was written in Aramaic, some Greek, and today we read it in English which is all a form of simple translation. But from their original format, how they spoke in that day and wrote, how a particular saying would be phrased and through interpretation was written in a format we understand, you do not see any evidence from original to now would have required interpretation?

Here is an example from Thomas that compares to John: (scholars claim if Thomas was interpreted in these portions of scripture, it would match the example given from the Gospel of John)...

1. The image of the living God as an unknown Father (GTh 3, GJn 6:57; GTh 18, GJn 8:44; GTh 40, GJn 15:1).
Of particular interest is the phrase “the living Father” which occurs in both gospels (Thomas and John) and never in the Synoptics, or anywhere else in the New Testament.

2. The world is a carcass (GTh 56, GJn 15:19 & 17:14). It belongs to the devil (GTh 18, GJn 8:44). It is marked by the contrast between flesh and spirit (GTh 29, GJn 3:6, 6:63).

3. The beginning and the end of the world are one and the same with the present (GTh 18, GJn 8:44, GTh 19, GJn 17:5). Both gospel engage in speculations about the beginning, but on a scale nothing like the developed cosmogony of the second century Gnosticism.

4. The Redeemer received everything from the Father (GTh 61, GJn 3:35 & 13:3). Who keeps his words will not taste death (GTh 1 & 111, GJn 8:51).

5. The Redeemer has come into this world of poverty (GTh 28, GJn 1:10-12)

6. The Redeemer is light (GTh 77, GJn 8:12).

7. The Redeemer is the teacher GTh 13, While for the most part in John teacher has a negative connotation of a Jewish leader in GJn 13:13-14, the Washing of the Feet episode, Jesus reveals what it means to be a dida,skaloj. To be a true teacher, means to be different from the socially accepted teachers.

8. The Redeemer speaks with remarkable assurance. He needs no proof for his testimony (GTh 3, GJn 4:42 & 8:13). He is the light (GTh 77, GJn 8:12). He is the living water (GTh 13, GJn 4:13). This particular idea, that is, that the redeemer needs no proof for his words, parallels the Stoic idea of cataleptic impressions.

9. The discipleship is about becoming like the Redeemer (GTh 108, GJn 7:38), renouncing the world (GTh 110, GJn 7:35), being like a little child (GTh 4, GJn 3:4), and worshipping the Father (GTh 15, GJn 4:21-23).

10. The most important prerequisite of the discipleship is listening to the words of Jesus (GTh 19, GJn 15:7, see also: GTh 1 & 111, GJn 8:51) and keeping them (GTh 78, 79, GJn 8:32).

11. The disciples will never see death (GTh 1, 111, GJn 8:51, GJn 21:23 a tradition that the beloved disciple will not die: The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

12. The Redeemer has departed which makes his words even more important (GTh 38, GJn 7:34). One has to seek him, and will not always find him.



All verses can be broken down and they either fit Matthew - Mark - John - Luke:
The claim then is in the Gospel of Thomas, we see all 4 current Gospels of our Bible today.
It's why they say Thomas predates the other Gospels (40 A.D.)
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
M...,

NO.

Proof;
G-d has always been..not Christ.
G-d created all and man......not Christ.
Christ was born of a earthly virgin birth...not G-d.
Christ died on the cross for our sins.......not G-d.
Christ ascended up from the earth...G-d did not.
Christ does not know when His 2nd advent will be ......G-d does.
Christ will reign on the earth for one thousand years ...G-d will not.

Depending on the assignment of duties by G-d......they can be the same.
So you live believing God and Christ are two separate beings?
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
He is listed as once being a professor of Chapman University in the Religion Department.

And you don't want to accept Thomas, I get it.
So as a typical denier, it is obvious of your witch hunt.

Still don't phase me one bit what you think!!
I think when you read someone calling you stupid and gullible that it is time to maybe realize you're not conversing with someone who respects you. Watch the tenor of peoples defense of their own beliefs. The insecure one's call people who don't see things as they do names.
They'll never ever be persuaded to be better people than that by facts they've already decreed are of no interest to them.

And to presuppose the comeback by those described, recognizing antisemitism isn't name calling. It is identifying a malicious defect at work in a forum dedicated to the Messiah prophesied in the Torah of the Hebrews.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
All verses can be broken down and they either fit Matthew - Mark - John - Luke:
The claim then is in the Gospel of Thomas, we see all 4 current Gospels of our Bible today.
It's why they say Thomas predates the other Gospels (40 A.D.)
The reason there are similarities is because the gnostics learned the gospel from Christians and then perverted what they were taught into their own writings like the Gospel of Thomas Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. As John said, they went out from us because they were not of us due to their gnostic teachings.

And no one knows when the GoT was written. Anyone who says they know is a liar.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
he is wrong because he makes his living writing? never heard that one before.
you say it like he is just out to make a quick buck, what a dumb idea, do you have any idea how long it takes to write books thats non fiction based on years of research. if im out to make quick fast money, writing books would be the last thing i would do. most of these people walked away from good paying work just to go out and struggle their but off doing something they have a passion for.

These folks just imagine things they can't prove or support in any way.
these folks did years of research, wrote books, and filled them facts to support these views in everyway.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
The reason there are similarities is because the gnostics learned the gospel from Christians and then perverted what they were taught into their own writings like the Gospel of Thomas Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. As John said, they went out from us because they were not of us due to their gnostic teachings.

And no one knows when the GoT was written. Anyone who says they know is a liar.
what makes you think they perverted the teachings of Jesus? is it because they didnt conquer and kill everyone like the roman church?
do you have an example of the bad fruits of these Gnostic Christians?
i like tyhe gnostics, the term is thrown around like the boogy man but no one ever asks why. jimmy says the gnostics are bad guys so they must be bad guys lol. if jimmy says the sky is falling are you gonna believe that to?