OSAS= House Built on Sand
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I can't help but chuckle when I see these back and forths between Ralph and others, because there seems to be agreement on what there is disagreement about. That is of course, unless you believe a person can stop trusting/believing and still be saved. But that didn't come across in your comment.
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R
What I've noticed about 'once saved always saved' adherents is they haven't thought through their own beliefs about the subject.
Okay, your version of 'once saved always saved' seems to be along the lines of 'the true believer can never stop believing'.
Except for this new ridiculous Freegrace 'once saved always saved' doctrine (which says you can go back to unbelief and you are still saved), the basic disagreement I have with traditional Calvinism based 'once saved always saved' belief is I believe the true believer CAN stop believing. I don't disagree with the argument that only true believers really are saved to begin with. I just disagree with the hard and fast 'rule' that says once you are a believer you will always be a believer, and thus, will always be saved.
I know a Spirit-filled person who has left their faith and gone back to unbelief. Yet so many are sure believers are incapable of doing that. But what matters is the Bible explicitly warns against doing that, anyway.
There are weak believers, and there are strong believers. Strong believers in whom the word is deeply rooted are the ones who won't turn back to Egypt. Weak ones are the ones who are in danger of doing that. That's why it's important to be a strong believer who won't stop believing. But we have a church that teaches weak believers that they can not fall away into unbelief, instead of growing them up into maturity where they are strong in their believing and secure in salvation.
Okay, your version of 'once saved always saved' seems to be along the lines of 'the true believer can never stop believing'.
Except for this new ridiculous Freegrace 'once saved always saved' doctrine (which says you can go back to unbelief and you are still saved), the basic disagreement I have with traditional Calvinism based 'once saved always saved' belief is I believe the true believer CAN stop believing. I don't disagree with the argument that only true believers really are saved to begin with. I just disagree with the hard and fast 'rule' that says once you are a believer you will always be a believer, and thus, will always be saved.
I know a Spirit-filled person who has left their faith and gone back to unbelief. Yet so many are sure believers are incapable of doing that. But what matters is the Bible explicitly warns against doing that, anyway.
There are weak believers, and there are strong believers. Strong believers in whom the word is deeply rooted are the ones who won't turn back to Egypt. Weak ones are the ones who are in danger of doing that. That's why it's important to be a strong believer who won't stop believing. But we have a church that teaches weak believers that they can not fall away into unbelief, instead of growing them up into maturity where they are strong in their believing and secure in salvation.
R
And yet we have a whole book of the Bible devoted to the believing Galatians who turned back to the law for justification. But you say only people who never believed leave.
And Paul made it quite clear to them, using the law they were turning back to, to show them that they would not be heirs along with the sons of the New Covenant for straying from believing in Christ for justification.
And Paul made it quite clear to them, using the law they were turning back to, to show them that they would not be heirs along with the sons of the New Covenant for straying from believing in Christ for justification.
Ecclesiastes 3 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
The word of God does use time keepers . He turned it on, on the fourth day .He takes a licking and keeps on ticking. The original Timex. LOL
God calls the light, day and the night, darkness but together as a 24 hour clock he calls the combination day. Today as long as it is today if you hear his voice if we do not harden our hearts we can enter His Sabbath .the word Sabbath is not a time sensitive word .
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:5
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The house built on sand is a metaphor for insecure footing. Jesus Christ is the rock. Insecurity in salvation, our being able to overcome God's plan teaching, is the sand.
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and SUFFER REPROACH, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11, NKJV)
"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."(Acts 3:20, 21, KJV)
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God, the Father."
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and SUFFER REPROACH, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11, NKJV)
"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."(Acts 3:20, 21, KJV)
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God, the Father."
U
The key word in my statement is status, the status that God declares upon the believer.
It is quite obvious you have huge issues with the eternal assurance of the believer, this is something you need to bring to God before prayer.
It would seem you have formed your ideas based on the problems you see occurring in the modern church, my view is God knows who are His and He will deal with them.
Replacing bad doctrine (easy believism, cheap grace) with more bad doctrine (you have to demonstrate your belief to be truly saved, and you better keep on believing as though the exertion of our will to maintain belief saves us) just leaves us with bad doctrine all around.
Hey! UnderGrace... PTL!
Here is the answer to your question:
2Pet 2:20,21 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse then the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after than had known it to turn away from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
Now here is the holy commandment being talked about here:
1 Jn 3:19-23 "And hereby we know that we are of the truth and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not then we have confidence toward God and whatsoever we ask we receive of him because we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment that we believe upon the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another as he gave us commandment.
Maranatha!
Here is the answer to your question:
2Pet 2:20,21 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse then the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after than had known it to turn away from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
Now here is the holy commandment being talked about here:
1 Jn 3:19-23 "And hereby we know that we are of the truth and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not then we have confidence toward God and whatsoever we ask we receive of him because we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment that we believe upon the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another as he gave us commandment.
Maranatha!
Admitting that our freewill is not taken away after being saved is admitting that we are still free to make our own choices, and sometimes humans make bad choices- like leaving God. You can deny bible meaning all you want, it will never make false what's true. Christ's blood saves, if someone had Christ's blood but it was taken away from them- that means that they were saved but are saved no longer. No matter how you twist and turn it, that is the meaning of "no longer."
Hey! Ranph... PTL!
As I see it: The difference between stumbling and falling away is that when we stumble, we get back up before we are overcome; whereas when one falls away, that one is unable to get back up because it is now impossible to renew that one again unto repentance seeing as they crucify afresh the Son of God, sadly. I suspect that when one is overcome; that one has allowed their, Jesus authored, faith to wither away and die. Brings new meaning to the importance of our prayers for each other: 1Jn 5:16,17 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin and there is a sin not unto death."
Maranatha!
As I see it: The difference between stumbling and falling away is that when we stumble, we get back up before we are overcome; whereas when one falls away, that one is unable to get back up because it is now impossible to renew that one again unto repentance seeing as they crucify afresh the Son of God, sadly. I suspect that when one is overcome; that one has allowed their, Jesus authored, faith to wither away and die. Brings new meaning to the importance of our prayers for each other: 1Jn 5:16,17 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin and there is a sin not unto death."
Maranatha!
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M: How can I know that I am really saved ?, since there is no literal mark at me that I can see ?.
L: ” everyone who is continually faithful and submissive to Me should not be destroyed, but instead, possess age-abiding Life”.
M: Can I do anything worthy in Your eyes that is said such submissive to You , since there are Isa64:6 , Isa 26:12 , Phl2:13 .
L: surely you can’t, so if you understand those words well you surely bring Glory to Me , because I my self who has been doing good things inside you , if you can do anything worthy inside you so the salvation is your own work not a Gift =Grace or there is no perpetual covenant about Sabbath by this surely you will say the Glory is for your own right ?, so in My words there are the seventh days that shall be kept along your days in your life as “a perpetual covenant” Exo30:16 ,where this perpetual covenant refer to “ salvation = God Grace alone “, remember : I introduced the seventh day as the holy day in Gen2:3 long long time ago before you mankind fell.
M: then the words “continually submissive to Me” refer to the way that I can verify my self whether I am really saved or not ( I within You and You within me that no one and never be such things can separate us ) , by then /with such those confirmations I will joyfully bring Glory to You ? in line with the purpose of creation Isa43:7 ?.
L: Yes, so I gave you Rom20:8 too, to lead you learn about the plan I had had before the creation of the world, the saveds are likened as enter the Canaan in OT , was there any one who went out from Canaan to Egypt again (in spiritual meaning)?, none.
And how can I assure you the winners that I shall never blot your name from the book of life Rev3:5 (there are the winners in Sardis church that the Lord assure , where in that time they are all still alive , verse 4 ) , how can I assure you the winners in Smyrna church that the lof shall never work to you Rev2:11 ?, what reason I surely free the devils from their prison where in that time there are still many the winners that are alive where before this old earth is replaced to the new one they surely will be lifted in the twinkle of the eyes with the eternal bodies? .
M: Amen.
M= me ; L= Lord.
L: ” everyone who is continually faithful and submissive to Me should not be destroyed, but instead, possess age-abiding Life”.
M: Can I do anything worthy in Your eyes that is said such submissive to You , since there are Isa64:6 , Isa 26:12 , Phl2:13 .
L: surely you can’t, so if you understand those words well you surely bring Glory to Me , because I my self who has been doing good things inside you , if you can do anything worthy inside you so the salvation is your own work not a Gift =Grace or there is no perpetual covenant about Sabbath by this surely you will say the Glory is for your own right ?, so in My words there are the seventh days that shall be kept along your days in your life as “a perpetual covenant” Exo30:16 ,where this perpetual covenant refer to “ salvation = God Grace alone “, remember : I introduced the seventh day as the holy day in Gen2:3 long long time ago before you mankind fell.
M: then the words “continually submissive to Me” refer to the way that I can verify my self whether I am really saved or not ( I within You and You within me that no one and never be such things can separate us ) , by then /with such those confirmations I will joyfully bring Glory to You ? in line with the purpose of creation Isa43:7 ?.
L: Yes, so I gave you Rom20:8 too, to lead you learn about the plan I had had before the creation of the world, the saveds are likened as enter the Canaan in OT , was there any one who went out from Canaan to Egypt again (in spiritual meaning)?, none.
And how can I assure you the winners that I shall never blot your name from the book of life Rev3:5 (there are the winners in Sardis church that the Lord assure , where in that time they are all still alive , verse 4 ) , how can I assure you the winners in Smyrna church that the lof shall never work to you Rev2:11 ?, what reason I surely free the devils from their prison where in that time there are still many the winners that are alive where before this old earth is replaced to the new one they surely will be lifted in the twinkle of the eyes with the eternal bodies? .
M: Amen.
M= me ; L= Lord.
Going back to the Greek in your OP, you have really messed up! First, most of those verses do not have the word, “submit“ or “obedience” in them. Further, you have made all the different verb tenses, including the genitive participles, indicative 3rd person plural, etc, all read as “Continually” then wrongly translation of the verb.
In Greek, there is sometimes warrant on rare occasions to translate verbs into “continually” but NOT in every verse! And not randomly! There have to be STRONG reasons for doing it, including tense and context!
I think either you, or someone you copied and pasted from, do not know Greek at all. Maybe self taught, in a bad way? (It is the right thing to post where you stole the material from. In fact it is both a scholarly rule and a forum rule!)
All I know is you have committed terrible translation errors, and then used eisegesis to support your erroneous soteriological doctrine!
Here’s a clue. You start without poor presuppositions, as your OP did. Then you read what the Bible is actually saying, rather than what you want it to say.
I am currently on vacation, but when I get home, and have all my Greek tools, I can show you where you erred in every passage! I have 2 years of seminary Greek, and I am just starting a theological PhD. Just so you know I am qualified to read Greek.
Oh, I used to live in terror of losing my salvation for many years. God gradually ministered to me, showing me all the passages that prove eternal security, and those encouraging us to live holy lives, devoted to God!
In Greek, there is sometimes warrant on rare occasions to translate verbs into “continually” but NOT in every verse! And not randomly! There have to be STRONG reasons for doing it, including tense and context!
I think either you, or someone you copied and pasted from, do not know Greek at all. Maybe self taught, in a bad way? (It is the right thing to post where you stole the material from. In fact it is both a scholarly rule and a forum rule!)
All I know is you have committed terrible translation errors, and then used eisegesis to support your erroneous soteriological doctrine!
Here’s a clue. You start without poor presuppositions, as your OP did. Then you read what the Bible is actually saying, rather than what you want it to say.
I am currently on vacation, but when I get home, and have all my Greek tools, I can show you where you erred in every passage! I have 2 years of seminary Greek, and I am just starting a theological PhD. Just so you know I am qualified to read Greek.
Oh, I used to live in terror of losing my salvation for many years. God gradually ministered to me, showing me all the passages that prove eternal security, and those encouraging us to live holy lives, devoted to God!
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Hi Slayer, the phrase "he who endures to the end shall be saved" is only used in the Bible when it's referring to the time of great tribulation (just prior to Christ's return). As such, I believe it will be one of the principle signs of a true believer in that day and age (far more than it is today in most cases). True believers ARE the ones who endure to the end, because God, by the power of His sanctifying grace, has promised to see that we do .. cf John 6:37-40; Philippians 1:6; 2:13, Hebrews 7:25.
This seems consistent with the Lord's and St. John's teachings, where we learn that we are saved NOT at the end, but from the moment we first believe (IOW, when we first come into possession of "eternal life").
For instance:
.........John 3
.........18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in
.........the name of the only begotten Son of God.
.........John 5
.........24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into
.........judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
.........1 John 5
.........13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you
.........have eternal life.
~Deut
.................John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
................ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me and .. of ALL that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up
................on the last day!
.
This seems consistent with the Lord's and St. John's teachings, where we learn that we are saved NOT at the end, but from the moment we first believe (IOW, when we first come into possession of "eternal life").
For instance:
.........John 3
.........18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in
.........the name of the only begotten Son of God.
.........John 5
.........24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into
.........judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
.........1 John 5
.........13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you
.........have eternal life.
~Deut
.................John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
................ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me and .. of ALL that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up
................on the last day!
.
We do not "endure" apart from sanctifying grace (IOW, on our own) to somehow prove ourselves worthy of being saved at the end, rather, we who are His endure (are preserved) in the faith to Glory because of His sanctifying grace, because we 'already are' ... saved. We are saved by grace alone, which really means that we are saved by Christ and what He did for us .. alone, not by anything that 'we' do .. Romans 4:5; Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5.
He is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins .. e.g. Romans 5:8-10; 2 Corinthians 5:21.
~Deut
..........1 Thessalonians 5
..........23 May the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and
..........body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
..........24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
.
He is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins .. e.g. Romans 5:8-10; 2 Corinthians 5:21.
~Deut
..........1 Thessalonians 5
..........23 May the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and
..........body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
..........24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
.
Enduring until we die is for every one of God's people- tribulation time or not. We need to be faithful until death. Just because the bible says something to one person does not mean it's not for everyone. For example, David was a man after God's own heart. All His children are after His own heart- otherwise they wouldn't be His children.
If you got into a rescue boat, you were saved, but you are not completely saved until you're back on dry ground. If you jump out of the boat in shark infested waters before reaching shore, you are no longer saved. To say that no one would do that is untrue. There are people who leave the safety of being in Christ, and it is not impossible to come out of Christ once in Christ.
If you got into a rescue boat, you were saved, but you are not completely saved until you're back on dry ground. If you jump out of the boat in shark infested waters before reaching shore, you are no longer saved. To say that no one would do that is untrue. There are people who leave the safety of being in Christ, and it is not impossible to come out of Christ once in Christ.