No, God did not lie

[OneFaith]

Hi again OneFaith, I forgot to ask you about something else in my last post to you (sorry about that).

You said that Christ's blood saves, that those spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 had it, and that they were saved because they did. My question is, how did you arrive at that conclusion? IOW, where does the Bible tell us that those who v26 is referring to were saved by His blood?

Thanks!

~Deut

To which are you referring? Christ blood saves? That those being spoken of are christians? That they have/had Christ's life saving blood? That losing Christ's sacrifice for your sins means loss of salvation?

Ok well first, Christ's blood saves. Jesus is the lamb of God because when things were done physically in the old testament the blood of animal sacrifices represented how Christ's sacrifice will save us from our sins debt. But the blood of animals never saved anyone (Hebrews 10:4). But Jesus sacrifice made us holy (spiritually clean without sin). (Hebrews 10:10). Also in Revelation 7:14- "They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the the Lamb."

Those spoken of were saved/Christians. Hebrews 10:19 shows who is being spoken of- brothers and sisters (christians) who will enter the most holy place (heaven) because of the blood of Jesus. So 'we' 'our' 'you' refers to the saved.

That they have or at least had Christ's life saving blood, and if they lose it. Again it is speaking to the saved, and you cannot be saved without Christ's blood sacrifice. Christ's blood, Christ's sacrifice, God's grace, these all mean the same. To have them means to be saved, to have them no longer means to be saved no longer. Hebrews 10:27 says these same people can expect hell fire just like God's enemies- which we would be if we lose Christ's sacrifice for our sins.

Christ's blood is powerful enough to cleanse and and every sin it is applied to. If it no longer applies, it no longer saves.

Did I answer your question?

 

[dcontroversal]

Unlike most people, I do not go with what I've been taught without first seeing if it's scriptural. Let's look at context...

But if (conditional statement) you (saved Christian- the bible is not written to the worldly but to Christians) sin willfully (on purpose, premeditated, without goal and effort to stop) there no longer (benefit stopped- benefit being Christ's sacrifice/God's grace) remains a sacrifice (Christ's sacrifice/life-saving blood) for your sins (sin debt that only Christ's blood can take away).

BUT<------what comes before the BUT.....that is the context....

 

[Placid]

Hi,
I see that our discussion has drawn in both sides in this age old wonderment between “Once saved always saved,” and “One can be saved and lost again.”

Discussion is accomplishing its purpose when both sides contribute without using strong terms, or words like “Blasphemy” against one you may disagree with.
--- (The difference between a discussion and an argument is that, with an argument 'there is more heat than light.')

The truth is that we all learned the Gospel message through someone else, and whether we follow what they have taught us or whether we take that as a basis, and then study the Scriptures, as we are supposed to do. --- Our spiritual growth and maturity may depend on the use of the spiritual Link, which is, seeking the Holy Spirit’s guidance to interpret the Scriptures, either to understand that what we learned is truth, --- or adjust what we have learned, to what the Scripture is teaching.

I understand the ones who say, “Once saved always saved,” because they can say, “God said it, I believe it, and that settles it, --- so don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up.”

Others say, “Those who go back on their faith were never saved in their first decision to accept Christ, though it may have been made sincerely.”

And then we come to a Scripture like Hebrews 10:26 which seems to give a doubtful approach to both trains of thought.

I like how LW97 explains it, so let’s check some of those verses from Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

--- “After we have received the knowledge of the truth,” speaks of ‘receiving it,’ so we would have it, would we not?

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated;

--- Notice again, “After you were illuminated.” --- During those growing pains and the endurance of persecutions of yourself and with others for your faith in God, ‘the devil was out to get you.’ --- The question is, “Did he get some?”

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just (the ones justified by faith) shall live by faith;
--- But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

So I guess the judgment to make is, whether “After we have received the knowledge of the truth,” and “After we were illuminated,” means entering into salvation or not. --- And then ‘enduring for a time,’ --- but then turning back or denouncing our faith,

--- If it was just backsliding, it can be repented of, but when it says, “Drawing back to perdition,” it seems like a turning back, does it not?

So in verse 39 we have the two groups “But we are not of those who draw back,” --- but of those “who believe and endure to the end.”

 

[Deuteronomy]

I guess the judgment to make is, whether “After we have received the knowledge of the truth,” and “After we were illuminated,” means entering into salvation or not.

Hi Placid, you are correct. One of the difficulties we have with arriving at a proper exegesis (in a number of portions of the Book of Hebrews) is the terminology it uses (which is either unique to Hebrews, or is just different enough from the similar terminology that we find in the rest of the Bible that it makes it difficult to know with certainty what is actually being said/taught). Because of this fact, I don't believe that there is a better book in the NT to find (apparent) Biblical support for certain, opposing presuppositions, especially for those who live and breath by their presuppositions.

Most of the Book of Hebrews is simple enough to understand, but where continual controversies exist, understanding what is actually being taught there must be done in conjunction with the rest of the Scriptures IMHO (and that as far removed from presuppositional thinking as possible).

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

To which are you referring?

Hi OneFaith, I was referring to what you said here................

Those spoken of were saved/Christians. Hebrews 10:19 shows who is being spoken of- brothers and sisters (christians) who will enter the most holy place (heaven) because of the blood of Jesus. So 'we' 'our' 'you' refers to the saved.

Thanks! Here's at least part of problem with that (for me anyway ).

..........Hebrews 10
..........26 If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

..........39 We are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

IOW, on the one hand there's a "we" group that does not turn away from Christ/shrink back to perdition (v39), but then there's another "we" group that does exactly that (v26). So the question is, who is "we" referring to in v26 and who is "we" referring to in v39, because they cannot be the same group, obviously.

Any ideas? (perhaps v39's "we" group is a group within a group, IOW, a subset of the larger "we" group that is being referred to in v26?)

Let me be clear about this as well, I'm not trying to get you to believe what I do, rather, I'd like to discuss this passage with you and everyone else here with an open mind and learn. While I hold to the perseverance of the saints, I'm not interested in "debating" who is right and who is wrong. For now anyway, I'm just hoping to get a better handle on this difficult and controversial passage, so your thoughts about all of this are most appreciated (particularly your insights on how we can discern who the "we" groups are and the reasons you believe what you do about them .. or if you believe they are the same group, how we can reconcile what Hebrews says about them .. because they hardly seem harmonizable as written)

Thanks

~Deut

 

[OneFaith]

Hi OneFaith, I was referring to what you said here................

Thanks! Here's at least part of problem with that (for me anyway ).

..........Hebrews 10
..........26 If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

..........39 We are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

IOW, on the one hand there's a "we" group that does not turn away from Christ/shrink back to perdition (v39), but then there's another "we" group that does exactly that (v26). So the question is, who is "we" referring to in v26 and who is "we" referring to in v39, because they cannot be the same group, obviously.

Any ideas? (perhaps v39's "we" group is a group within a group, IOW, a subset of the larger "we" group that is being referred to in v26?)

Let me be clear about this as well, I'm not trying to get you to believe what I do, rather, I'd like to discuss this passage with you and everyone else here with an open mind and learn. While I hold to the perseverance of the saints, I'm not interested in "debating" who is right and who is wrong. For now anyway, I'm just hoping to get a better handle on this difficult and controversial passage, so your thoughts about all of this are most appreciated (particularly your insights on how we can discern who the "we" groups are and the reasons you believe what you do about them .. or if you believe they are the same group, how we can reconcile what Hebrews says about them .. because they hardly seem harmonizable as written)

Thanks

~Deut

The ones who shrink back used to be part of the 'we' group, but are no longer. Therefore, after they fall away, 'we' no longer includes them. It's like this... the old testament israélites were God's people, right? And He called His people out of Egypt, right? Of those 600,000+ original people, how many made it to the promise land? Two- Joshua and Caleb- that's it. In the same way, how many of the millions of people who call themselves christians will make it to heaven? Jesus says a few. Compared to the perportion it will be few. "Many are called but few are chosen." The called are those called to be Christians, but only a few of them will actually make it to heaven- the ones who believe and obey, even onto death.

 

[Deuteronomy]

The ones who shrink back used to be part of the 'we' group, but are no longer.

Hi OneFaith, while I appreciate what you are saying, I'm going to need to go back and take a closer look. Unfortunately, the way Chapter 10 is written makes it easy to unintentionally bypass what is actually being said and rely on our presuppositions to come to the conclusions that we do, but they (presuppositions) can "color" the truth to the point that it is no longer the truth (as I'm sure you are already well aware).

"Many are called but few are chosen." The called are those called to be Christians, but only a few of them will actually make it to heaven- the ones who believe and obey, even onto death.

Based in part on what Romans 8:29-30, the ordo salutis, necessitates, I believe that there are TWO "calls", one outward (the hearing of the Gospel .. which is for all men/women/saint to be or reprobate), and one inward, which I believe to be the Lord's "drawing" of believers alone .. John 6:44. The latter is the "call" that I believe is being referred to in Romans 8:29-30.

I do have one question, what do you believe the role of "obedience" is in regard to our salvation? 1. Do we choose to obey God in order to be saved and/or to remain saved, or 2. Do we choose to obey God because we already are saved? (obedience in this case being understood as the "result" or "fruit" of our salvation, not the cause).

Thanks

~Deut

 

[OneFaith]

Hi OneFaith, while I appreciate what you are saying, I'm going to need to go back and take a closer look. Unfortunately, the way Chapter 10 is written makes it easy to unintentionally bypass what is actually being said and rely on our presuppositions to come to the conclusions that we do, but they (presuppositions) can "color" the truth to the point that it is no longer the truth (as I'm sure you are already well aware).

Based in part on what Romans 8:29-30, the ordo salutis, necessitates, I believe that there are TWO "calls", one outward (the hearing of the Gospel .. which is for all men/women/saint to be or reprobate), and one inward, which I believe to be the Lord's "drawing" of believers alone .. John 6:44. The latter is the "call" that I believe is being referred to in Romans 8:29-30.

I do have one question, what do you believe the role of "obedience" is in regard to our salvation? 1. Do we choose to obey God in order to be saved and/or to remain saved, or 2. Do we choose to obey God because we already are saved? (obedience in this case being understood as the "result" or "fruit" of our salvation, not the cause).

Thanks

~Deut

We are called to be christians.

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ- which we must obey by dying to ourself, being buried in the watery grave of baptism, and being raised from the water a new creature in Christ.

Jesus says that most people are not going to heaven. So clearly not everyone will receive grace. Therefore, God has a deciding factor for who will receive grace and who will not. Whatever this deciding factor is, it cannot earn grace because grace is a gift. That deciding factor is obedience. The bible mentions that obedience cannot earn grace- therefore God can use that as His deciding factor for who to give grace to. God only gives grace to those who obey Him.

This is hard for many to understand because down here on earth obedience does earn things- you obey your boss and get a paycheck. Children obey their parents and earn an allowance. It is not that God won't accept obedience as a payment for grace, it's that obedience can't earn it- therefore you can obey God without earning grace. Just like wearing a yellow shirt does not, can not earn you a mansion, but if a rich man was giving mansions to people wearing yellow shirts- that's his prerogative, and my decision whether or not to wear a yellow shirt.

 

[Placid]

Hi Deuteronomy,

An interesting statement: “One of the difficulties we have with arriving at a proper exegesis (in a number of portions of the Book of Hebrews) is the terminology it uses (which is either unique to Hebrews, or is just different enough from the similar terminology that we find in the rest of the Bible that it makes it difficult to know with certainty what is actually being said/taught).”

And OneFaith, your statement causes one to think does it not?
“The ones who shrink back used to be part of the 'we' group, but are no longer. Therefore, after they fall away, 'we' no longer includes them.”

So now that everyone has taken a step backwards with these verses, let’s go to a very familiar passage of Scripture and analyze it.


John 3:1There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

Nicodemus was a Pharisee, ‘a ruler of the Jews,’ --- He said, “We KNOW that You are a teacher come from God,” --- and the proof was that, “No one can do the signs (miracles) that You do except God is with Him.”

That is good perception. --- Then Jesus made this statement, “Unless one is born again he cannot ‘see’ the kingdom of God.”
--- ‘Born again’ prompted Nicodemus to ask about another physical birth, but Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot ‘enter’ the kingdom of God.”

Once we listen to the Gospel and hear that God loves us and has a plan of salvation for us, we have only to accept it and join the happy people that already have made that decision. --- When I finally accepted Jesus as my Savior and understood what was promised, I immediately felt that first wave of love, which is a spiritual experience, and I could ‘see’ the growing kingdom of God at work in our local Church. --- And there were elders and friends to encourage a new convert to enjoy the experience.

But then Jesus said, “That which is born of flesh is flesh,” so even if a person could enter his mother’s womb and be born again, he would still be flesh.
Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot ‘enter’ the kingdom of God.”

So what is the difference between ‘seeing’ the kingdom of God from a first decision, --- and qualifying to ‘enter’ the kingdom of God in a position of holiness?

--- As it says again in Hebrews 12:
14 "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord."

 

[Deuteronomy]

So what is the difference between ‘seeing’ the kingdom of God from a first decision, --- and qualifying to ‘enter’ the kingdom of God in a position of holiness?

--- As it says again in Hebrews 12:
14 "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord."

Hi Placid, it seems to me that what "qualifies" us to enter in to the Kingdom of God, according to John 3:5 anyway, involves the new birth, not obedience. The things that "accompany" salvation (which certainly includes obedience) are the result (or fruit) of our salvation, not its cause.

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ- which we must obey by dying to ourself, being buried in the watery grave of baptism, and being raised from the water a new creature in Christ.

Hi OneFaith, I've never heard it put quite that way before. Before I reply to the rest of your post, I'd like to hear your answer one additional question. The "Gospel" is the "good news", but that means there is "bad news" as well. So my question is, what is the "bad news", and what makes it "bad"?

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[OneFaith]

Hi OneFaith, I've never heard it put quite that way before. Before I reply to the rest of your post, I'd like to hear your answer one additional question. The "Gospel" is the "good news", but that means there is "bad news" as well. So my question is, what is the "bad news", and what makes it "bad"?

Thanks!

~Deut

The good news is that if you obey the gospel you will escape eternal hell fire.
The bad news is that if you do not obey the gospel you will not escape eternal hell fire.

"With flames of fire He will take vengeance on those who know not God and who obey not the gospel of His Son." 2 Thesalonians 1:8

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So it sounds like basically, people believe we are under a new covenant, but it is really not new at all. It is based on the same concept.

Obey, Get to heaven, Disobey, welcome to hell.

 

[Deuteronomy]

The good news is that if you obey the gospel you will escape eternal hell fire.
The bad news is that if you do not obey the gospel you will not escape eternal hell fire.

Hi OneFaith, if our salvation rests upon our personal obedience, then how does Jesus' life, death and Resurrection figure into that? IOW, why did His Father send Him here to die that horrible death on the Cross if our obedience (or lack thereof) is the determining factor in our eternity?

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

The good news is that if you obey the gospel you will escape eternal hell fire.
The bad news is that if you do not obey the gospel you will not escape eternal hell fire.

This question comes to mind as well, if what you say is true, that obedience to God is what gets us into Heaven, how do you determine if/when you've been obedient "enough"? I ask because if standing in the presence of God requires that we be both innocent and righteous (and it does), then the only acceptable "level" of obedience would be an entire lifetime of "perfect" obedience would it not?

The problem with that is, none are (perfectly obedient, that is, well, save the One, of course).

~Deut

 

[OneFaith]

Hi OneFaith, if our salvation rests upon our personal obedience, then how does Jesus' life, death and Resurrection figure into that? IOW, why did His Father send Him here to die that horrible death on the Cross if our obedience (or lack thereof) is the determining factor in our eternity?

Thanks!

~Deut

Christ's blood sacrifice to wash away sins is God's grace. God only gives it to those who obey- otherwise everyone in the world would have it- since Christ died for everyone. He died to give everyone the opportunity to receive it by obeying the gospel (baptism). We see that if we quit obeying, we quit receiving Christ's sacrifice for our sins. ("But if you (saved christian) sin willfully (premeditated without goal and effort to stop) there no longer remains (there once genuinely did remain) a sacrifice for your sins.")

Christ's blood washing away our sins is what saves us, but other things save by leading us to it- hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, and being baptized into Christ's death- where He shed His blood. (This is how we get in Christ by obeying the gospel). "With flames of fire He will take vengeance on those who know not God and who obey not the gospel of His Son." So.... obey the gospel = no hell fire, and obey not the gospel = yes hell fire. So whether you understand how or not, you must agree that obedience effects salvation (whether someone goes to hell or not).

But i will try to explain how. On earth obedience does earn things, but in the spiritual realm it does not earn payment for even one sin. Since it cannot earn it, God can choose to use obedience as the deciding factor for who He gives grace to, and who He does not- just like anything else He choose to decide who receives it- such as all the red heads, or all people exactly seven feet tall- none of these things earns anything, however, whoever chooses to give a gift, it is their prerogative/choice/deciding factor/personal preference to choose anything that does not earn it- and o evidence does not earn the gift of grace. It is God's personal preference to give it to those who obey, since they cannot earn it their selves.

Let's say you are a clown at the zoo handing out suckers to kids. You have one sucker left. To your right there is a kid obeying his mother cheerfully, and to your left there is a kid screaming at his mother and telling her what to do instead of obey her. Which kid would you choose to give it to? I would give it to the obedient one, even though his obedience did not earn it, the suckers were a free gift from the zoo. Do you see how that was your personal preference and that the kid did not earn it?

 

[Placid]

Hi,

To continue our discussion where Jesus said, in John 3:3 “Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
--- Often in a revival meeting, or an Evangelistic outreach, many people will go forward to make a decision when an altar call is given. --- They pray to receive Jesus as their Savior, and speak to a counsellor.
They may immediately want to get involved in Church activities which is a kind of protection or safe environment for a new Christian.

They start going to the Sunday services. --- They start telling their family and friends that they have made a decision. --- But after a few weeks they start missing the Church service. --- There might be a tug of war between old friends and new Church contacts. --- If they are discouraged or ‘enticed by the devil,’ they may go back to their old life style, and give lame excuses (or lies) for not continuing on in the decision they made.

Are there those who would say that by saying the words, “I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord,” they have made a decision and are saved? --- They would be counted in as converts from the revival meeting.

Are they saved? --- If they died in the first two or three days when they were ‘on fire for the Lord,’ would they be saved?

But a month later when they are no longer around the Church or its people, are they saved?
From them saying the words, --- does that obligate God to keep a promise that they are saved? --- Or are they like Demas who Paul said, ‘went back because he loved this world better'?

Would we be giving someone false hope if we say they are saved by ‘making a decision,’ regardless of the life we lived afterwards?

 

[OneFaith]

This question comes to mind as well, if what you say is true, that obedience to God is what gets us into Heaven, how do you determine if/when you've been obedient "enough"? I ask because if standing in the presence of God requires that we be both innocent and righteous (and it does), then the only acceptable "level" of obedience would be an entire lifetime of "perfect" obedience would it not?

The problem with that is, none are (perfectly obedient, that is, well, save the One, of course). How do we determine how much obedience meets His personal preference


~Deut

Obedience does not earn salvation, but on a separate note, God chooses to give the gift of grace to those who obey (read post#56).

How do we determine how much obedience meets His personal preference? By one, not living in sin (Every christian visits sin, but no Christian lives in sin- cause they would no longer be a Christian). And by two, we grow in Christ. In order to become more and more like Christ you must sin less and less. (Whatever stops growing dies).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So what is the difference between ‘seeing’ the kingdom of God from a first decision, --- and qualifying to ‘enter’ the kingdom of God in a position of holiness?

Faithfulness.

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” Revelation 17:14​

​

​

 

[OneFaith]

Hi,

To continue our discussion where Jesus said, in John 3:3 “Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
--- Often in a revival meeting, or an Evangelistic outreach, many people will go forward to make a decision when an altar call is given. --- They pray to receive Jesus as their Savior, and speak to a counsellor.
They may immediately want to get involved in Church activities which is a kind of protection or safe environment for a new Christian.

They start going to the Sunday services. --- They start telling their family and friends that they have made a decision. --- But after a few weeks they start missing the Church service. --- There might be a tug of war between old friends and new Church contacts. --- If they are discouraged or ‘enticed by the devil,’ they may go back to their old life style, and give lame excuses (or lies) for not continuing on in the decision they made.

Are there those who would say that by saying the words, “I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord,” they have made a decision and are saved? --- They would be counted in as converts from the revival meeting.

Are they saved? --- If they died in the first two or three days when they were ‘on fire for the Lord,’ would they be saved?

But a month later when they are no longer around the Church or its people, are they saved?
From them saying the words, --- does that obligate God to keep a promise that they are saved? --- Or are they like Demas who Paul said, ‘went back because he loved this world better'?

Would we be giving someone false hope if we say they are saved by ‘making a decision,’ regardless of the life we lived afterwards?

To be born again is by water and Spirt, not by words. Paul seen the Light, he believed, he prayed, he was prayed for, he fasted, his eyes were healed. But none of these things saved him, none of these things washed away his sins- only Christ's blood can do that- which is why we must be baptised into His death- where He shed His blood. (Romens 6:3). It wasn't until Ananias said to him "What are you waiting for, arise, be baptised and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

To answer your other question, we are all part of Christ's body, and His blood circulates through His body- beginning with getting baptized into His death, and continuing with the Lords Supper. But if one part of the body, let's say finger, misses church and doesn't take the Lords Supper, it falls asleep so to speak. Then when blood is restored it feels like little needles, but the finger is still safe and still part of the body. But if it is denied blood circulation long enough, it will turn gangrene, and fall off. If he falls away he can never become part of the body again.