Good point. Neither Calvinists nor non-Calvinists will change their minds or their position.
Calvinism vs. Arminianism?
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I used be a Calvinist when I read books by Calvinists. But then I decided to start reading the Bible and it changed me to an Arminian.
So how did you manage to do away with the vast majority of scriptures which support Calvin's view. Did you cherry pick the verses that sounded good to you and ignore the rest?
There are no Scriptures which support Calvin's views. Distorting, misinterpreting, and reinterpreting Scripture is not permissible.
It all depends on which side of the fence you stand, the debate has been going on for centuries by much smarter people than us and it will continue after we're gone.
Only one view can be right as they contradict each other, so only those who have the Holy Spirit are in the truth and the others are deceived. They think they are saved but they will get a rude shock when Jesus tells them to depart from Him into the ever lasting lake of fire.
God deliberately wrote the Bible in such a way, that only His elect will understand it. We know that the majority of professing Christians are not going to be saved, because they were never truly saved to begin with.
A reprobate can spend his whole life serving in the Church and doing good things, only to be rejected on judgement day.
What do Calvinists do with these verses? Do you ignore them?
1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
John 3:
16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Please do not do as some here have done and change the word "whosoever" to "the elect".
I don't think this verses are easy whether you are a Calvinist or an Arminian.
So 1 Tim 2 as far as I can see is saying that God wants all men to be saved, our experience will tell us that not everyone comes to faith in Jesus. It could be argued that this is because we have free will and only some will accept God's free gift of salvation.
But that then means that God is Sovereign over everything accept our choice to follow him. Alternatively although God wants all men to be saved only the elect are saved.
The verse about God being long suffering again to me seems to say God is waiting for all those to be saved to be saved. This could mean either all those who chose to believe, putting there trust in Jesus, or all those who God has decided will be saved.
Ezekial verse talks to me of God not wanting anyone to perish but wanting us all to turn in repentance. It also reminds me of Jonah and Ninevah. In addition I actually see this as kind of a direction that we should go out evangelising those around us. Romans 10: 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
1 John 3 v16 Just means everyone who believes or has put their trust in Jesus will be saved and can be applied whether you believe it is the person's choice or God's choice.
There are passages in Romans which kind of indicate only certain people are called by God. In particular from an Armenian point of view how do you interpret Romans 9, it all about God choosing some and not others.
Rom 9 is not about God choosing some to salvation and not others. You just described a schizophrenic God who wants everyone to be saved and doesn't want everyone to be saved.
Pilkington, Here is how to read Rom 9
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...d-romans-chapter-9.177505/page-7#post-3631833
I believe God only wants those who he has called ie the elect to be saved but then I lean more towards Calvinism. I believe you have to hold God's sovereignty and our free will in tension.
In Ephesians 2 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
God made us alive when we were dead in our sins. How can we respond to God when we are dead, unless God makes us spiritually alive, and enabling us to respond. Also later in the passage it talks about our faith not coming from us but being a gift from God. Which suggests to me my Belief is as a result of God saving me.
So what is Romans 9 talking about if it is not about Salvation? I am genuinely interested.
Yes, only one view can be right, and since Calvinism CONTRADICTS the Bible, it cannot be right.
Take the issue of limited atonement. The Bible says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but Calvinism contradicts this and distorts the meaning of "the world" in order to accommodate its false teaching that Christ died only for the so-called "elect". So here are the Scriptures.
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]
John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]
There are many others Scriptures all tied into these, but even one verse or passage should be sufficient for the one who believes God. So if you could not honestly say that you believe these passages (which are very plain and clear) it means that you do not believe God, but prefer to believe Calvin.
You need a better translation. One you can understand because a literal one is too difficult to understand the underlying greek grammar. God made you alive but you needed to believe first. Here, this is better:
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/eph.2.8-9.NLT
Whether I read the NLT or NIV, that passage says the same to me. I was dead in my sins, God gives me life through Jesus' death. God saves me by his grace his gift that I don't deserve.
I have salvation because I have put my trust in what Jesus did for me when he died on the cross. I still can't see how I could believe as I was dead in my sin.
It is also incredibly patronising to say need a better salvation. I have used a range of Bibles over the years, I am most familiar with the NIV. The NLT may be easier to understand in places but all translations have their strength's and weaknesses. . The only way to understand the greek grammar is if you study Greek for yourself maybe that is something I should do.
I have salvation because I have put my trust in what Jesus did for me when he died on the cross. I still can't see how I could believe as I was dead in my sin.
It is also incredibly patronising to say need a better salvation. I have used a range of Bibles over the years, I am most familiar with the NIV. The NLT may be easier to understand in places but all translations have their strength's and weaknesses. . The only way to understand the greek grammar is if you study Greek for yourself maybe that is something I should do.
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whatev
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That is a mischaracterization. You really should read Arminius' works for yourself then you won't put up ignorant memes like this.
But you are not reading the Bible. It does not say God saved you, it says God saved you WHEN YOU BELIEVED. That is proof that you need help on your reading skills. The NLT helps you understand those greek grammars that are not being translated in the more literal word equivalent translations.
Yes I get it the moment I believed, God saved me, but who gave me the ability to believe God, he opened my blind eyes to see the Glory of the gospel.
By being patronising and condescending, all you have done is put my back up, making it far less likely that I will listen to you.
By being patronising and condescending, all you have done is put my back up, making it far less likely that I will listen to you.
When you make the comment in #111 that your faith is a result of your salvation then you are rejecting and not listening to the Bible not me.