John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism
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Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we witness what we have seen, and you do not receive our witness. If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:11-12
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes, but we eventually sinned ourself. and as ther word says .
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I could not bring myself to life if I wanted. so not sure why this argument is used so often.
Jesus offered to bring me to life based on his death. He drew me, I responded. And says yes lord, I want what you are offering.(faith) Please apply it to my life. He tried to draw many others, and as happened in John 6, They did not respond, they said no lord, I do not want what your offering. I like things the way they have been. (unbelief)
Much like the tax collector. Lord have mercy on a sinner such as me. Jesus said he went home justified (forgiven of all sin) Not because he earned it, or saved himself, or tried to bring himself to life, By his cry we understand he understood he could not do that, otherwise, he would not have cried out to God.
Again, the penalty of sin is death, we are not made alive until we accept the gift, which is eternal life. God will not force it on us.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Ho
I do not understand your line of questioning, it makes no sense, did God prove trustworthy and show us and hrough hs work bring us to faith, or was it some magic trick? (Not trying to be sarcastic brother just what i see)
how do you learn to have faith in your parents, do you muster it up with your own strength, or do they earn your faith (as an adult, a baby trusts blindly, but can lose that faith). How about a spouse, or a boss at work, do you muster faith of your own strength to trust them,
I do not understand your line of questioning, it makes no sense, did God prove trustworthy and show us and hrough hs work bring us to faith, or was it some magic trick? (Not trying to be sarcastic brother just what i see)
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I was reprobate at one time, if your saved, and I have no doubt you are, so were you.
so please.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Hey bro, I would not assume such things, Many here have studied it for years. and did not just skim over it, when you make arguments like this, You just hurt your own view, it comes across as prideful.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Tell that to Saul, Who spent his life trying to please God with his good works, because all he wanted to do was be a servant of God, Hated sin to the point you could not bring a charge against him, because as he said in one of his epistles. he was blameless concerning the law.
his issue was not that he wanted to sin, His issue is he misunderstand the law he was trying to follow. Like many religious people do. It does not mean they do not want to follow god. They just do not understand what it takes.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
amen, by grace you have been saved THROUGH faith (God did not force you to trust him) not you were saved by Gods enlightenment and magic gift of faith given so that in an instant you went from total anarchy unbelief, to praising God belief.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
That is not the only point of disagreement, if that was all, there most likely would not be an issue, unless our pride would swell up and we have to get you to believe exactly like us
The issue is why those who will go to hell go according to fatalism as I call it, Thats a MAJOR issue,
Yes and although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision (John 6:44,65).
Unless the Father draws us and enables us, we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
I was once in a discussion with someone who was under the delusion that the only thing involved in coming to saving belief/faith in Christ is paper, ink and human intelligence. In other words, he believes that one merely reads the Bible (as if it is simply a text book) and through human intelligence alone, one comes to understand God's word and chooses to believe all by himself.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
amen, lest we should boast. Not of works.
unfortunately you go to far to make sure that is correct.
Us trusting God is not us eaning salvation, nor is it a work, I can not boast of saving myself because I had faith in someone else saving me, the one who saves gets the glory, I get nothing. but the gift he gave me (salvation)
It is when we do as God demands, and repenting, coming to true saving faith, based solely on the work of God on the cross. and in our lives (as he draws us to himself. which is a process.. it does not happen in an instant or overnight.)
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
by God working on their hearts. By people like you and I acting as lights and drawing them to God. sharing Gods truth with them, and By God exposing their sin and exposing their guilt and exposing their need for him. (think law as a schoolmaster)
like he promised he would so. and like he brought everyone I know personally who is saved to himself.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Your pushing it my friend, I believe God is the author and finisher of my faith, Just because you do not understand it does not make it so. I also believe faith repentance and salvation is a gift of God, paid for by the cross. So please stop. That is what gets most people who hold to a fatalistic view on ignore. Because their pride is steep and it hurts them, so no one wants to be around them. or talk the word with them.
People have been trying to be nice to you It would be nice if you returned the favor and stop using ad hominem attacks like this which are normal calvinist propoganda not based on facts, and all it does is tend to divide people.
Who follows Arminius? I reject Arminius as legalistic believers, and reject fatalism (or Calvinist thinking), I disagree with both parties. this is not an Arminius vs Calvinist argument, Most people do not follow either group. yet you get the two in a room, and they wil argue all areas from an Arminius vs Calvinist perspective.
when they or you do that, You have lost all sense and ability to properly discuss what the other person is thinking, you have already judged him (and falsely I may add) based on what you think he believes, so you will never be open to what they actually believe.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
wow, Now there is some pride talking. Fatalists would have a point talking to that person.Yes and although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision (John 6:44,65).
Unless the Father draws us and enables us, we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
I was once in a discussion with someone who was under the delusion that the only thing involved in coming to saving belief/faith in Christ is paper, ink and human intelligence. In other words, he believes that one merely reads the Bible (as if it is simply a text book) and through human intelligence alone, one comes to understand God's word and chooses to believe all by himself.
Cause and effect.
It would seem the other way around .First things first .We are made alive so that we can acknowledge we have passed from death to eternal life .
Faith, believing something someone said not seen is a written work of Him.... not the imaginations of ones own heart . Can't separate faith from works as a labor of someone's love .
We can only Love him because He first revealed himself to us . It was then that we could seek after him (not before) No revelation no God. Know the revelation of God know God.
Remember in John 6:29 Christ informed the disciples. It is the work of God's faith working in us that we can beleive Him . He must do the first work of creating. No man of his own volition can seek after him who has no form .
Its the difficulties we see in Revelation 2 men were putting their faith in that which we see with our eyes. rather than believing God not seen .
We can love God and therefore keep His commands because he reveals them to us .No revelation from God no loving God by believing what he says.
Note ….(purple in parethesses) my comment to help aid my point
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. (hearing God) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (beleive God not Nicole of the Nicolaitan sect ) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.He that hath an ear, "let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches"; (Not what Nicole preaches) To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:1-7
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes, But that did not make us pass from death to life, Gods work through our faith did. If we have no faith, we are not yet alive, we sare still dead in our trespasses and sins.
We can not love him UNTIL we experience first hand his love, in salvation. While he is drawing us, we are seeking and trying to find answers, (if we are open) and looking to try to find truth. and God is sharing us and helping us to understand that truth, but even then, we can not love him,
It is not until we come to faith, Call out to God, God saved us by giving us his righteousness and his spirit. that he makes us alive, and THEN we can learn to love him as he loved us.
Amen, and I have never said otherwise. I believe God works differently in different people. because he knows what works for one person will not work for another. I also believe God can work on a perosn for years before they finally come to hims and say yes God, I want what your offering.
I also believe God knows some people will never come to faith no matter what he does. yet the bible still says the hs convicts them of sin righteousness and judgment, thus they have no excuse.
I see our first love as remembering that time when you were first adopted as Gods child and the excitement you had. Remembering where you came from. there are times we get so busy with our christian life we forget where we came from. and we need to remind ourselves of our first love.
No worries brother! I think both Scripturally and on a personal level God is the One who gave me the faith to believe in Jesus. John 1 tells me that it is by God's Will, NOT MINE, or anyone else's, that I am born again.
I had no part in my conception and physical birth, so since the Bible tells me I wasn't alive before He made me a new creation, why would I believe I had a part in Him making me born again?
There is NO logical, or reasoned cause for me to have gone to a Spirit filled Church, and fully believe in who Jesus is, and what He has done. The Lord gets all the credit for drawing me there, not me.
But I'm absolutely cool with brothers and sisters who think differently than me on this.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I agree with you brother, I had nothign to do with God making me alive, he did all the work. All I did was say yes God, I want what your offering. That is no means meant I saved my self or had a part of it. God still had to do ALL the work.
God worked on me for awhile. I remember in my room many a night, asking God to save me, Because I knew I was a sinner, and deserved judgment, But it was not until many months later when I finally got the courage to walk up to the pastor after church, and he had a deacon take me to a room and show me the whole gospel. that I finally understood completely. And at that point, I called out to God and asked him to show mercy on a sinner such as I, And I know then I was saved, I walked out born again, based completely on the work of God spending all that time working on my heart and lest we forget, all the work his son did on the cross, and drawing me to himself a job I must add, could not have been easy, but I thank god he never gave up!
I believe that Jesus taught that all men who are saved go through a John 16:8-11 experience. I am concerned that too many folks make an intellectual decision and never experience the heart felt conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment that Jesus spoke of in John 16. This is my major concern about the Calvinist theology of election.
Only God can judge but I believe that God gave us His word to bring us to Christ. We cannot come to Christ until we see our need of forgiveness. Forgiveness through grace not election or works of righteousness done by our hand.
For the cause of Christ
Roger