The Heresy of Annihilationism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
I hate being born, why must I be born to this physical world in the first place?

and Judas Iscariot would have the same exact thoughts,

Jesus told Judas that hell is a place where one would regret ever be born


and it's more tolerable on Sodom, and it's more tolerable to have a huge grind stone hung around my neck than for me to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Judas had many years to trust JESUS and yet he made his proverbial bed.........although he was a devil from the beginning, a thief holding the bag and THE SON of perdition....JESUS chose him precisely because of who he was and what he would do....MANY say Judas had no choice because of what was written in the scriptures concerning him....I say that God knows the ending from the beginning and knew exactly every choice that Judas would make and prophesied accordingly......
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
To me it is ridiculous...God can make a body that can live for eternity, he can sustain a physical body in the flames of a furnace to the extent that they do not even smell of smoke (3 Hebrew boys in Daniel) why is it so hard to comprehend that God can indeed make a body for a lost man that can be eternally punished from the presence of the Lord in the Lake of fire......especially when there is a plethora of scripture that points exactly to this.........
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
To me it is ridiculous...God can make a body that can live for eternity, he can sustain a physical body in the flames of a furnace to the extent that they do not even smell of smoke (3 Hebrew boys in Daniel) why is it so hard to comprehend that God can indeed make a body for a lost man that can be eternally punished from the presence of the Lord in the Lake of fire......especially when there is a plethora of scripture that points exactly to this.........
pride and false teaching
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
To me it is ridiculous...God can make a body that can live for eternity, he can sustain a physical body in the flames of a furnace to the extent that they do not even smell of smoke (3 Hebrew boys in Daniel) why is it so hard to comprehend that God can indeed make a body for a lost man that can be eternally punished from the presence of the Lord in the Lake of fire
If He were not just and righteous, God could indeed do that. But God is just and righteous, and the Bible does not say that is what He will do.

......especially when there is a plethora of scripture that points exactly to this.........
That's where we do not agree. I believe the Bible is very clear that the wages of sin is death.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
If He were not just and righteous, God could indeed do that. But God is just and righteous, and the Bible does not say that is what He will do.


That's where we do not agree. I believe the Bible is very clear that the wages of sin is death.
Yes but it is far more than physical death although physical death is part of the wages of sin.

Adam died spiritually but continued to live physically.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
Yes but it is far more than physical death although physical death is part of the wages of sin.
People who are physically dead are dead, whether they were saved or not.
People who were saved will be resurrected to everlasting life.
People who were not saved will be resurrected, judged, and sentenced to die in the lake of fire.

Adam died spiritually but continued to live physically.
Where does the Bible say Adam "died spiritually"?
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
To me it is ridiculous...God can make a body that can live for eternity, he can sustain a physical body in the flames of a furnace to the extent that they do not even smell of smoke (3 Hebrew boys in Daniel) why is it so hard to comprehend that God can indeed make a body for a lost man that can be eternally punished from the presence of the Lord in the Lake of fire......especially when there is a plethora of scripture that points exactly to this.........
I have a lot of learning to do
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
People who are physically dead are dead, whether they were saved or not.
People who were saved will be resurrected to everlasting life.
People who were not saved will be resurrected, judged, and sentenced to die in the lake of fire.
They will be reunited with their body and the body will be changed into a body like that of the resurrected Savior's glorified body. A body that will not tire, experience hunger or the heat of the day. The unsaved will be reunited with their old body and cast bodily into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.

Where does the Bible say Adam "died spiritually"?
First book of the bible Genesis. The day you eat of it you shall die.

Surely you have been saved long enough to know these basic elementary truths of Gods word?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
Too often we judge something to be heresy because we don't agree with it. It should be very carefully done in that in the early centuries of our faith that term caused countless people to be tortured and murdered as heretics.
Especially in light of this scripture.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


I found some really great articles concerning the idea of an eternal Hell.

Eternal Torment?
by Richard T. Ritenbaugh
Forerunner, "Ready Answer," April 1996




From the writings of Roger Tutt

HELL IS NOT ENDLESS !!

A PAGE OF HOPE FAITH
by Rodger Tutt

Roger Tutt Greater Emmanuel
MY OPINION
In my opinion, people who feel motivated to defend the doctrine of endless hell have been chosen by God to be vessels of the grossest dishonour, regardless as to how righteous the rest of their life appears to be. They have already sunk to the lowest level possible of moral debauchery. Read Here



REDDIT Christianity Board
Are there any Bible verse to support or debunk eternal torment?

The Reddit board has supporting scripture which help to make sense of the arguments presented.
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
Smiling, I desire growth, any advice?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
If He were not just and righteous, God could indeed do that. But God is just and righteous, and the Bible does not say that is what He will do.


That's where we do not agree. I believe the Bible is very clear that the wages of sin is death.
You know...your very first quote proves your stance is in error and based upon ignorance....God's VERY NATURE and CHARACTER makes it impossible for him to HAVE SIN in his presence and demands JUSTICE and JUDGMENT....and the BIBLE does say he WILL do exactly that regardless of ANY AND ALL that deny this truth.....
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Smiling, I desire growth, any advice?
Read your bible and love the Lord more than sin.

Psalm 119 says wherewithal shall an young man cleanse his way. By taking heed thereto unto thy word.

Ps 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Great psalm for growth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
the theory of ann... will do nothing but open a huge can of worms in hell.



depart from me? (Matthew 7:21-23) no way, I'm going to violently grab Jesus, bite him and drink the blood of eternal life

What do you want with us, Son of God?
“Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time? (Matthew 8:29)


not only will I go to hell, but I will drag God down to hell with me, hold on to God in hell, and compel God (knowing God's love) to convert my soul in hell, then I will be redeemed in hell, and I will be saved <-- there is no second chance at salvation, this is just pipe dream



Lazarus, Lazarus, why are you depriving that drop of water from my tongue


is the torment in hell evenly distributed? even if it is, it's far too extreme to feel it

there's hardly any self-control in hell. we'd be consumed in the present, the reflex of the flesh will be so all consuming, that we are compelled to feel torment and respond sinfully.



the desire for sin be very extreme?

"I will make sure to drown myself in hell, for all eternity, multiplied by degrees of intensity, just for the sake of committing even the smallest possible sin that can hypothetically exist, ..."

so yes, hell definitely exist.
Too often we judge something to be heresy because we don't agree with it. It should be very carefully done in that in the early centuries of our faith that term caused countless people to be tortured and murdered as heretics.
Especially in light of this scripture.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


I found some really great articles concerning the idea of an eternal Hell.

Eternal Torment?
by Richard T. Ritenbaugh
Forerunner, "Ready Answer," April 1996




From the writings of Roger Tutt

HELL IS NOT ENDLESS !!

A PAGE OF HOPE FAITH
by Rodger Tutt

Roger Tutt Greater Emmanuel
MY OPINION

In my opinion, people who feel motivated to defend the doctrine of endless hell have been chosen by God to be vessels of the grossest dishonour, regardless as to how righteous the rest of their life appears to be. They have already sunk to the lowest level possible of moral debauchery. Read Here
Personally, I don't care what Roger Tutt has to say about it, unless he is in agreement with God's word, which he isn't. We have not dishonored God as is stated, but we are contending for the truth of His word. Annihilationist are those who are distorting it, because it is not the truth. What I do care about is what God's word has to say about this topic and it is not annihilation or extinction . It is about contending for the truth and being zealous for God's word. That said, all scriptures teach everlasting, eternal, on-going punishment while consciously existing in separation from God in the lake of fire, which is the definition of death.

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matt.24:46


In the scripture above, the same word "aionios" which is the adjective derived from the noun "aion," is used to describe the state of existence for both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must carry the same meaning for both. That said, since we know that "eternal life" is eternal on-going conscious existence in the presence of the Lord in the kingdom of God, then "eternal punishment" must also be eternal on-going conscious existence in separation from God's presence in the lake of fire. We have listed the following scripture many times, but I will list it here again:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

"they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath."

God's wrath being poured out "full strength" into the cup of His wrath infers that there will be no grace or mercy mixed in with said wrath.

Tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lord.

One would have to be conscious and existing in order to be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb. The word "torment" infers an on-going state, ergo, tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

" And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night"

In order for the smoke of their torment/torture to rise for ever and ever, again, the individual would have to be conscious and existing in order to experience that event. The words "no rest day or night" also demonstrates the idea of on-going conscious existence in order to experience not having any rest or cessation from said torment.

These are just a few and there are many, many more. Even the words everlasting, eternal, torment and punishment, support the idea of their torment being on-going conscious existence.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
Personally, I don't care what Roger Tutt has to say about it, unless he is in agreement with God's word, which he isn't. We have not dishonored God as is stated, but we are contending for the truth of His word. Annihilationist are those who are distorting it, because it is not the truth. What I do care about is what God's word has to say about this topic and it is not annihilation or extinction . It is about contending for the truth and being zealous for God's word. That said, all scriptures teach everlasting, eternal, on-going punishment while consciously existing in separation from God in the lake of fire, which is the definition of death.

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matt.24:46

In the scripture above, the same word "aionios" which is the adjective derived from the noun "aion," is used to describe the state of existence for both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must carry the same meaning for both. That said, since we know that "eternal life" is eternal on-going conscious existence in the presence of the Lord in the kingdom of God, then "eternal punishment" must also be eternal on-going conscious existence in separation from God's presence in the lake of fire. We have listed the following scripture many times, but I will list it here again:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

"they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath."

God's wrath being poured out "full strength" into the cup of His wrath infers that there will be no grace or mercy mixed in with said wrath.

Tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lord.

One would have to be conscious and existing in order to be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb. The word "torment" infers an on-going state, ergo, tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

" And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night"

In order for the smoke of their torment/torture to rise for ever and ever, again, the individual would have to be conscious and existing in order to experience that event. The words "no rest day or night" also demonstrates the idea of on-going conscious existence in order to experience not having any rest or cessation from said torment.

These are just a few and there are many, many more. Even the words everlasting, eternal, torment and punishment, support the idea of their torment being on-going conscious existence.
It would do you well to learn from others. The bible says that is wise.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
Smiling, I desire growth, any advice?
Read the word that is on the page and then find the quiet so that The Word that delivered it unto the world can speak in the silence. And tell you what it means. Live the word.

There is no thing so false as that which professes the Prince of Peace while acting like the Devil.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
It would do you well to learn from others. The bible says that is wise.
The Bible also says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

The problem in the world today is that Christians are getting their information from the writings of men, YouTube, web-sites and hearsay, instead of relying on the word of God. I read other peoples stuff, but only to see if it is in agreement with scripture. That said, since Roger Tutt is teaching that punishment in the lake of fire is not endless, then the only thing that he is teaching is a false teaching, because the word of God is very clear regarding eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire.

All believers in Christ should be doing their own studies in God's word. And when someone teaches them regarding God's word, they should be like the Bereans and search the scriptures to see whether or not the person is telling the truth, being in agreement with the word of God.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
God's VERY NATURE and CHARACTER makes it impossible for him to HAVE SIN in his presence and demands JUSTICE and JUDGMENT.
He had sin in His presence when He went and sought out adam and eve after what they'd done...and that was before any blood covered them.

And when the sons of God went and presented themselves before God, satan also went with them, and he actually had conversation with God...

Not to argue, but this sounds to me like sin in Gods' presence.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
The Bible also says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

The problem in the world today is that Christians are getting their information from the writings of men, YouTube, web-sites and hearsay, instead of relying on the word of God. I read other peoples stuff, but only to see if it is in agreement with scripture. That said, since Roger Tutt is teaching that punishment in the lake of fire is not endless, then the only thing that he is teaching is a false teaching, because the word of God is very clear regarding eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire.

All believers in Christ should be doing their own studies in God's word. And when someone teaches them regarding God's word, they should be like the Bereans and search the scriptures to see whether or not the person is telling the truth, being in agreement with the word of God.
Fallen man rejects those parts of scripture that he finds difficult to deal with, everyone accepts the scriptures that speak of Gods love and mercy. There's never any argument about those scriptures.

Most Churches never preach on Gods judgement or hell, they just concentrate on Gods love, mercy, kindness, long suffering, health and prosperity. The Bible says that in the latter times, many will not endure sound doctrine. They will seek those who tickle their ears, with the things they want to hear and we can see many false prophets have cashed in on the demand.

Many people want to hear something new, they think they already know everything the Bible has to say so they seek out those who can stimulate them with new things. They call themselves progressive.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
People who are physically dead are dead, whether they were saved or not.
People who were saved will be resurrected to everlasting life.
People who were not saved will be resurrected, judged, and sentenced to die in the lake of fire.


Where does the Bible say Adam "died spiritually"?
Shrume clearly you do not hold to the idea that the flesh is not saved until it has been tranformed . that is why the body dies we die because of Sin but our spiri8t is eternal . God made us that way. WE were created for an Eternal God who made us to live forever. Until sin was found in us , now we die. in that dying our spirit still lives out side the phsycial restrictions of the body. Jesus is our example of a gloified body which we have the hope of getting when HE comes back. those who have died already will rise again as 1thess chpater 4:13-18 speaks about and in corthians . Jesus to spoke about it.

Again Jesus is the authority on the topic you refuse to listen to what HE said. You have unorthodox stands . notuptome is correct biblically here. I agree with him because what he has said is what the biblical teaches. Not human reasoning.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
People who are physically dead are dead, whether they were saved or not.
People who were saved will be resurrected to everlasting life.
People who were not saved will be resurrected, judged, and sentenced to die in the lake of fire.


Where does the Bible say Adam "died spiritually"?
Some just don't want to believe that "dead" means "dead" - they want to give EVERYONE eternal life! When it is written: The wages of sin is DEATH, but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL life. . . . and that GIFT is given ONLY to those who believe in Jesus Christ - not to Hitler, Dahmer, Ben Ladin, Manson, etc. (unless they confessed Jesus as Lord on their death beds!) They will face God at the white throne judgment and be judged upon their works and face the second death - which is NOT to live eternally.