The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[Stunnedbygrace]

NO the context with the full chapter do not support that idea.

I disagree.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If there were eternal life for humans that is in themselves, why would God need to raise ANY of them from the dead? They would already be alive and so wouldn't NEED to be raised from the dead.

And, in fact, it says we are raised imperishable. Sown perishable but raised imperishable.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And, in fact, it says we are raised imperishable. Sown perishable but raised imperishable.

Why say raised imperishable, raised changed in that way, this mortal putting on immortal - when we were already immortal from birth?

 

[CS1]

If there were eternal life for humans that is in themselves, why would God need to raise ANY of them from the dead? They would already be alive and so wouldn't NEED to be raised from the dead.

context if you die to day will you not be resurrected when Jesus comes ? you have enternal life now ? In Christ . So if the word of God says they both small and great will be judged the dead which will syand before Christ then that is what will happen.

 

[CS1]

I disagree.

you can

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Break time over. Can't wait to come back!

 

[CS1]

Why say raised imperishable, raised changed in that way, this mortal putting on immortal - when we were already immortal from birth?

that is human reasoning not contextually the word of God concerning the eternal state of hell. Rev 20 and Jesus was very clear . I will post them again for you.

 

[CS1]

Jesus used these discriptive terms about hell's eternal state for man:

And notice here the many references to hell being an eternal state:

• everlasting fire Matt 18:8
• everlasting punishment Matt 25:26
• eternal condemnation Mark 3:29
• the fire that shall never be quenched Mark 9:43-48
• their worm does not die " "
• unquenchable fire " "

and other Gospels were Jesus is speaking about hell and man going there.

Luke 12:5
John 5:29
John 15:6

satan seems to be an eternal being? it does not specifically say about all other that have a part in the "lake of Fire" are tortured forever?

The scriptures were given to you. The context of the lake of fire is eternal, I looked up the word forever in the Greek and it means forever. In addition, you make a big presumption when you said :


“And, it doesn't fit with humans, who don't have eternity in them (except by the new birth),”



There is life and there is eternal which speaks of the reward of the Righteous. The unrighteous have eternal but not in the context of reward from God.

If there is no eternity for humans who are not saved then why did they have to be raised from the dead to be judged ? The Great White Throne Judgment is very clear who is there.

Rev 20:11-15 reads like this :



11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Bible is very clear , Jesus was very clear .
Hell is an enternal place

here you go

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

context if you die to day will you not be resurrected when Jesus comes ? you have enternal life now ?

I'm not tracking you here...
Yes, I will be resurrected when Jesus comes. I was sown in the ground perishable. I will be raised imperishable.
And unbelievers are also sown in the ground perishable. They also will be resurrected. But not to eternal life but rather to the second death.

All men who are resurrected from the dead are not immediately made imperishable. Some of them die a second death.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

that is human reasoning not contextually the word of God concerning the eternal state of hell. Rev 20 and Jesus was very clear . I will post them again for you.

Not necessary to post again. If you can't track with me then you just can't. No biggie.

 

[PennEd]

No, I didn't mean that YOU bother me. You are a help a lot of the time, even though we don't agree on almost everything there is.

It bothers me to see two sides pit verses against each other and to see the inconsistencies on both sides and to watch a rerun of the same show over and over with neither side addressing their own inconsistencies.

I think that pennEd is the only one in here with the capability (at present, not forever!) of tracking with me even if he doesn't agree with me. That's not to say anyone is stupid. It's just to say that I think penned, at present, is the only one who can see the inconsistencies on BOTH sides. I could be wrong on that, but ?I think he sees it.

Thank you for your kind words. I lead a Bible study, and the 1st words I usually say are from a wonderful Pastor I've followed for a long time via internet.

Acts 17: " Don't believe anything Ed tells you, but search the Scriptures daily to see if he is speaking truth to word" ( Obvious paraphrase)!

Now on this issue, I think the lost will suffer eternally. I don't like it, and hope I'm wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me.

The outer darkness is kind of tricky. I think most commentators believe that it is another title, and perhaps descriptive aspect, of hell. That seems the most likely possibility. But hey, maybe not.

I say this is not a vital issue, because by and large it's Christians that debate this. The lost don't even contemplate hell. I think a lot of the warnings about hell and eternal suffering is there to spur US on to spread the spectacular news of the Gospel.

So I wouldn't start a conversation with an unsaved person about hell. I would tell them what Jesus Christ has done for me, and the Gospel.

But..... If they ask me..... I'd tell them you don't wanna go there and suffer eternally!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

you can

I agree with you here!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Now on this issue, I think the lost will suffer eternally.

I think their judgement - second death - will be eternal, irreversible, and they will never rise again.
But I still need to look at all of the verses together. Just took short break.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I like that I can hit "like" even when I don't agree with someone. I like and appreciate when a man can have a conversation with me and disagree with me while being respectful and civil.

I really appreciate you pennEd.
Even though spellcheck doesn't like your name and spells it this way every time: penned.

 

[shrume]

context if you die to day will you not be resurrected when Jesus comes ?

Yes. When Christ returns (whether you think it happens at the rapture or the first resurrection), that is when the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead. Dead Christians are dead, and living Christians are still mortal. Both remain in their current state until Christ returns.

you have enternal life now ?

No. We have the promise of everlasting life.

In Christ . So if the word of God says they both small and great will be judged the dead which will syand before Christ then that is what will happen.

Yes, it will happen. Everyone who has died will be resurrected and stand before Christ. When dead Christians are raised from the dead, they will be raised immortal, with new bodies. Living Christians will be changed (become immortal). That will precede the "second" resurrection and white throne judgment. Most of those raised at the second resurrection will not be saved, and will be sentenced to the second death, which will be permanent. They will not be made immortal.

 

[CS1]

I'm not tracking you here...
Yes, I will be resurrected when Jesus comes. I was sown in the ground perishable. I will be raised imperishable.
And unbelievers are also sown in the ground perishable. They also will be resurrected. But not to eternal life but rather to the second death.

All men who are resurrected from the dead are not immediately made imperishable. Some of them die a second death.

you are allegorizing the scriptures

 

[shrume]

Thank you for your kind words. I lead a Bible study, and the 1st words I usually say are from a wonderful Pastor I've followed for a long time via internet.

Acts 17: " Don't believe anything Ed tells you, but search the Scriptures daily to see if he is speaking truth to word" ( Obvious paraphrase)!

Now on this issue, I think the lost will suffer eternally. I don't like it, and hope I'm wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me.

The punishMENT of the lost will be permanent. The punishING of the lost will not last forever, but until they are destroyed.

The outer darkness is kind of tricky. I think most commentators believe that it is another title, and perhaps descriptive aspect, of hell. That seems the most likely possibility. But hey, maybe not.

Agree. It's another term for the fate of the lost. Permanent death.

I say this is not a vital issue, because by and large it's Christians that debate this. The lost don't even contemplate hell. I think a lot of the warnings about hell and eternal suffering is there to spur US on to spread the spectacular news of the Gospel.

The kindness of God leads people to repentance, not the fear of the torments of hell drives people to repentance.

So I wouldn't start a conversation with an unsaved person about hell. I would tell them what Jesus Christ has done for me, and the Gospel.

Good move!

But..... If they ask me..... I'd tell them you don't wanna go there and suffer eternally!

I'd tell them they don't want to die forever, and tell them some of the promises about the coming kingdom.

 

[shrume]

you are allegorizing the scriptures

No she's not.

Or, if you think she is, exactly how is she allegorizing them?

 

[Ahwatukee]

No that is what Vines says. No other Lexicon has that. None!

From Thayers on that word:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639

From the BDAG which happens to be the go to when learning Ancient Greek:

ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
to cause or experience destruction
act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
γ. without obj. J 10:10.

The most peered recognized Lexicon states the the word means eternal destuction; eternal death. The funny thing is Vines states that the Middle voice is the prerequisite for what you state and he shares but the word in question in Matthew 10:28 is in the active voice.

Here is Vines entry:
<A-1,Verb,622,apollumi>
a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luk 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luk 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Luk 15:24; of the perishing of food, Joh 6:27; of gold, 1Pe 1:7. So of persons, Mat 2:13, "destroy;" Mat 8:25, "perish;" Mat 22:7; Mat 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Mat 10:28; Luk 13:3,5; Joh 3:16 (Joh 3:15 in some mss.); Joh 10:28; Joh 17:12; Rom 2:12; 1Co 15:18; 2Co 2:15, "are perishing;" 2Co 4:3; 2Th 2:10; Jam 4:12; 2Pe 3:9. Cp. B, II, No. 1. See DIE, LOSE, MARRED, PERISH.

Vines starts his entry with the standard definition apollumi. And that standard definition agrees with the most peered recognized Lexicon; the BDAG. That the word means destroy utterly; hence eternal destruction as the BDAG puts it.

Me thinks Vines needs to be doing some editing.




My friend Apollumi is a verb not an adjective. Please see Thayer's entry posted above.

Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).
684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Do you see the definition above? Apoleia is from apollumi, which as you can see from what I have highlighted in red above says that neither word implies "annihilation" but "loss of well-being, ruinatioin . Bellow is the definition of another word translated as destruction:

"They will be punished with everlasting "destruction" and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

First of all, take notice of the scripture above, which states that "they will be punished with "everlasting destruction" and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." That word "destruction" above is translated from "olethros" which as you can see from the definition above, states that "olethros does not imply extinction or annihilation and therefore the word cannot be used to imply either. Therefore, the translated word "everlasting destruction" cannot mean annihilation or extinction, which because of the context would also mean that neither apollumi nor apoleia can mean annihilation or extinction as well, that is unless you believe that some people are completely obliterated and others suffer loss of well-being in separation from the Lord.

My point is that the one scripture above says it all in that, because olethros is translated as "everlasting destruction" and the word does not imply annihilation or extinction, then both apoleia and apollumi must also mean complete loss of well being when describing the destruction of human beings.

The on-going error with you and others, is that you look at the word destruction and you apply the meaning of annihilation or extinction to it without considering the words that it is being translated from. Not only are the Greek words defined as "complete loss of well being, ruination," but the context also bears out on-going, conscious existence in punishment.

My friend Apollumi is a verb not an adjective. Please see Thayer's entry posted above.

I don't believe that I said that appolumi was a verb, but one of the other words that I was also posting on. If I did, then it was just a typo. I will go back and check my post.

 

[CS1]

Yes. When Christ returns (whether you think it happens at the rapture or the first resurrection), that is when the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead. Dead Christians are dead, and living Christians are still mortal. Both remain in their current state until Christ returns.


No. We have the promise of everlasting life.


Yes, it will happen. Everyone who has died will be resurrected and stand before Christ. When dead Christians are raised from the dead, they will be raised immortal, with new bodies. Living Christians will be changed (become immortal). That will precede the "second" resurrection and white throne judgment. Most of those raised at the second resurrection will not be saved, and will be sentenced to the second death, which will be permanent. They will not be made immortal.

I gues they will not know the second death because they are dead lol you have and issue with "eisegesis "

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsəˈdʒiːsəs/ is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text.

and allegorizing of the verses .