Are Roman Catholics Christians

[Paul1979]

I have studied Catholicism. Where Protestants go awry with Catholics is that there is a very large gap of misunderstandings and misconceptions.

Before I started looking into Catholicism, I listened to a lot of Protestant opinions on Catholics and many other topics and what I tend to find out after doing research on the topics, is that the general opinion that many Protestants have, tend to be wrong and misguided by misunderstandings and misconceptions.

Catholics are Christian, it is ludicrous to think that Protestants are the "true" Christians and that there were a 1,000 years of non-Christians who thought they were Christians and they called themselves Catholics. Did the Catholic Church have issues, yes! But so does Protestantism and that does not make Protestants non-Christians.

Where Protestants go awry with this is that Protestants don't tend to study Catholicism. Protestants tend to gut the Catholic faith, and then make strawman arguments concerning Catholics. When you actually study that time period, it is quite fascinating. There is a lot of intellectual wrangling that has formed the intellectual foundation of the modern world.

I read one Catholic author Robert Sugenis which changed my view of Catholics and I would recommend that anyone interested in understanding Catholicism read these three books: Not by Scripture Alone, Not by Faith Alone, and Not By Bread Alone. You will get a historical, biblical, traditional, and a Catholic understanding of these issues. But what I find interesting is that he brings a lot of information together and demonstrates why they believe they what they believe.

I study Philosophy and many of the Philosophers that I read, interestingly, many of them are Catholic. Like, Jean-Luc Marion, Emmanuel Levinas, Jean Louis Chretien, John Caputo, Gianni Vattimo, and others. What is sad is that the topics these guys cover, there are almost no Protestants.

Protestants have abandoned the intellect that Catholics still hold onto and Protestants are being left behind in the fields that are very important to understanding why the world is the way it is today, like Phenomenology, Psychology of Religion, The Death of God/Nihilism, Death of God Theology, Philosophy of Religion and Phenomenology, and other similar fields. Having studied these areas, to be fair, the only two Protestants that are looking into this are Aaron Simmons and Bruce Ellis Benson that I am aware of and are published. But Catholics are miles ahead in these areas and they are influencing the people that studying it, the other group that is just as influential are Athiest.

I would recommend, read up on the Catholic Church and their doctrines, and stop taking other peoples wrong opinions on these issues. Fulton Sheen stated:
“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

I have come to believe he is correct.

 

[MarkWilliams]

Which ones are they, Mark?

All of the reformed Churches for a start and many others, too many to list but certainly not Orthodox, Catholic etc.

 

[MarkWilliams]

I have studied Catholicism. Where Protestants go awry with Catholics is that there is a very large gap of misunderstandings and misconceptions.

Before I started looking into Catholicism, I listened to a lot of Protestant opinions on Catholics and many other topics and what I tend to find out after doing research on the topics, is that the general opinion that many Protestants have, tend to be wrong and misguided by misunderstandings and misconceptions.

Catholics are Christian, it is ludicrous to think that Protestants are the "true" Christians and that there were a 1,000 years of non-Christians who thought they were Christians and they called themselves Catholics. Did the Catholic Church have issues, yes! But so does Protestantism and that does not make Protestants non-Christians.

Where Protestants go awry with this is that Protestants don't tend to study Catholicism. Protestants tend to gut the Catholic faith, and then make strawman arguments concerning Catholics. When you actually study that time period, it is quite fascinating. There is a lot of intellectual wrangling that has formed the intellectual foundation of the modern world.

I read one Catholic author Robert Sugenis which changed my view of Catholics and I would recommend that anyone interested in understanding Catholicism read these three books: Not by Scripture Alone, Not by Faith Alone, and Not By Bread Alone. You will get a historical, biblical, traditional, and a Catholic understanding of these issues. But what I find interesting is that he brings a lot of information together and demonstrates why they believe they what they believe.

I study Philosophy and many of the Philosophers that I read, interestingly, many of them are Catholic. Like, Jean-Luc Marion, Emmanuel Levinas, Jean Louis Chretien, John Caputo, Gianni Vattimo, and others. What is sad is that the topics these guys cover, there are almost no Protestants.

Protestants have abandoned the intellect that Catholics still hold onto and Protestants are being left behind in the fields that are very important to understanding why the world is the way it is today, like Phenomenology, Psychology of Religion, The Death of God/Nihilism, Death of God Theology, Philosophy of Religion and Phenomenology, and other similar fields. Having studied these areas, to be fair, the only two Protestants that are looking into this are Aaron Simmons and Bruce Ellis Benson that I am aware of and are published. But Catholics are miles ahead in these areas and they are influencing the people that studying it, the other group that is just as influential are Athiest.

I would recommend, read up on the Catholic Church and their doctrines, and stop taking other peoples wrong opinions on these issues. Fulton Sheen stated:
“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

I have come to believe he is correct.

Hi Paul,

You're most welcome to believe in the wisdom of those men you mentioned. My Bible tells me that he who trusts in man is cursed, it also says 'let every man be a liar and let God be true".

The Bible is full of warnings about those who embrace the traditions of men at the cost of following the Holy Scriptures.
I was comfortably ignorant in the Catholic church, until was was challenged to shine the Word of God onto it's teachings. It quickly exposed it as an Apostate, Pagan, Antichrist organisation which had nothing to do with true Christianity.

The Bible describes the Catholic Church as "the great Harlot" who deceives the world. It urges Gods people to come out of Her.

 

[Paul1979]

Hi Paul,

You're most welcome to believe in the wisdom of those men you mentioned. My Bible tells me that he who trusts in man is cursed, it also says 'let every man be a liar and let God be true".

The Bible is full of warnings about those who embrace the traditions of men at the cost of following the Holy Scriptures.
I was comfortably ignorant in the Catholic church, until was was challenged to shine the Word of God onto it's teachings. It quickly exposed it as an Apostate, Pagan, Antichrist organisation which had nothing to do with true Christianity.

The Bible describes the Catholic Church as "the great Harlot" who deceives the world. It urges Gods people to come out of Her.

WOW!

I do not know where to start with this.

So, every book you read is 'cursed'? and every person is a liar? So, can I assume you are lying? So, if I trust you, you are cursed? And that you are a liar as well? So how can I take what you say to be true? Your logic is flawed.

The Bible IS TRADITION! The men who compiled the OT complied Tradition. If you use only the Bible, then the Bible is your tradition.

How can the Bible describe the Catholic Church as the Great Harlot, when the Catholic Church did not even exist yet? Outside, certain Protestant circles, most of Christian Tradition has it as Rome or Jerusalem, not the Catholic Church (which at this point in time, was creating the Tradition of it being Rome (Roman Empire) or Jerusalem. If you move later down history, it became the Ottoman Empire, Napoleon or France, or whatever big bad baddy that was the enemy of a certain group of people. So, your argument is just in line with what others have already done and they have come and gone. As of right now, the Catholic Church has survived all of them and more than likely will outlive Protestantism. And this idea will be a footnote too history.

At the same time, where do you think Protestants came from? They came from the Catholic Church. Your belief about the Bible and how it is to be viewed and the books you have in your Bible came from Catholic Tradition, with few exceptions. You believe in the Trinity? Catholic. More than likely, you probably have beliefs that line up with Augustine (Catholic), or Aquinas (Catholic).

I think you prove my point, you are ignorant of the Catholic Church as you say you were "Comfortably Ignorant", so I wonder how much you actually studied Catholicism and how much you are being influenced by ignorant Protestantism. I find this type of argument to be lazy and comfortable.

What happens if what you are saying is actually wrong?

For me, I want to be correct, if I arrive at your conclusion, I want to have studied it for myself and see the evidence for myself if that is correct, and so far, my studies have shown me that your conclusion is not correct. Catholics are Christian, just as much as Protestants are Christians as well as Orthodox Christians.

 

[MarkWilliams]

WOW!

I do not know where to start with this.

So, every book you read is 'cursed'? and every person is a liar? So, can I assume you are lying? So, if I trust you, you are cursed? And that you are a liar as well? So how can I take what you say to be true? Your logic is flawed.

The Bible IS TRADITION! The men who compiled the OT complied Tradition. If you use only the Bible, then the Bible is your tradition.

How can the Bible describe the Catholic Church as the Great Harlot, when the Catholic Church did not even exist yet? Outside, certain Protestant circles, most of Christian Tradition has it as Rome or Jerusalem, not the Catholic Church (which at this point in time, was creating the Tradition of it being Rome (Roman Empire) or Jerusalem. If you move later down history, it became the Ottoman Empire, Napoleon or France, or whatever big bad baddy that was the enemy of a certain group of people. So, your argument is just in line with what others have already done and they have come and gone. As of right now, the Catholic Church has survived all of them and more than likely will outlive Protestantism. And this idea will be a footnote too history.

At the same time, where do you think Protestants came from? They came from the Catholic Church. Your belief about the Bible and how it is to be viewed and the books you have in your Bible came from Catholic Tradition, with few exceptions. You believe in the Trinity? Catholic. More than likely, you probably have beliefs that line up with Augustine (Catholic), or Aquinas (Catholic).

I think you prove my point, you are ignorant of the Catholic Church as you say you were "Comfortably Ignorant", so I wonder how much you actually studied Catholicism and how much you are being influenced by ignorant Protestantism. I find this type of argument to be lazy and comfortable.

What happens if what you are saying is actually wrong?

For me, I want to be correct, if I arrive at your conclusion, I want to have studied it for myself and see the evidence for myself if that is correct, and so far, my studies have shown me that your conclusion is not correct. Catholics are Christian, just as much as Protestants are Christians as well as Orthodox Christians.

You missed my point by a 100 miles, I didn't say every person and every book are liars. I said whatever contradicts God's Word, let it be a lie.
You Roman Catholics don't believe the The Holy bible is the Word of God, you believe it to be a bunch of stories invented by men. That's why your religion tells you to believe what the Pope says, rather than the Bible. The Pope has the final authority over all the Holy Scriptures, so if he doesn't agree with scripture then you must swallow what he says.
The Bible predicted that the Great Harlot RCC would deceive many, in the Book of Revelation. Gods Word told us the whole history of the world from it's beginning to it's end.
If the Roman Catholics read their Bible they would quickly see that it is Satanic and it serves the Devil and it will be cast into the lake of fire with Him and all the Demons and all fortose who have been deceived by the Harlot like yourself.

 

[mcubed]

Catholicism is a cult but G-d has a remnant and there are saved catholics; I don't think the remnant is just us Jews....

 

[Paul1979]

You missed my point by a 100 miles, I didn't say every person and every book are liars. I said whatever contradicts God's Word, let it be a lie.
You Roman Catholics don't believe the The Holy bible is the Word of God, you believe it to be a bunch of stories invented by men. That's why your religion tells you to believe what the Pope says, rather than the Bible. The Pope has the final authority over all the Holy Scriptures, so if he doesn't agree with scripture then you must swallow what he says.
The Bible predicted that the Great Harlot RCC would deceive many, in the Book of Revelation. Gods Word told us the whole history of the world from it's beginning to it's end.
If the Roman Catholics read their Bible they would quickly see that it is Satanic and it serves the Devil and it will be cast into the lake of fire with Him and all the Demons and all fortose who have been deceived by the Harlot like yourself.

That is a gross oversimplification. Catholics do believe in the Bible, very much so. I would argue that in some cases, more so than most Protestants. Read Robert Sungenis' books, his book on Catholic Justification is entirely Biblically based and argued. If you were to read his book Not by Scripture Alone, the entire book is argued from Catholic Tradition and Biblically, and Catholic Tradition is the Ancient Church writers (their arguments are completely biblically based) that most Protestants do not even read today.
If you were to read Jean-Luc Marion's books, his books deal with Biblical issues from a Phenomenological perspective and the understanding of what those experiences mean from a philosophical and theological perspective, not to mention the personal perspective.
There are a lot of Protestants that believe the bible "is a bunch of stories invented by men" (whatever that may actually mean), so by that logic are all Protestants going to hell as well? or just that group you believe believes that?
Show me where the Pope has overwritten the bible and that the Catholic Church abrogated such verses for the opinion of the Pope?

 

[jameen]

For me the key word is devout. The church, a church or any church does not have the power to save anyone...Ever. They do have the ability to create stumbling blocks to salvation or provide assistance to salvation as well. Being catholic was not a choice for most of us and we were taught a ritualistic form of worship. That if we cried out 'God help me!' He is deaf to sinners without being forgiven by a priest and receiving communion and praying before we commit the next sin. We were taught all other prayers must go through Mary.

That is nonsense! I was never taught to read the Bible either, other than reciting it like a prayer book. I/we were taught these things are sacred mysteries that nobody understands. And also going to a non-catholic church was considered a mortal sin deserving of hell and giving up the RCC was unforgivable and we'd/I'd be damned to hell for it. I seriously doubt if the people will be judged as a group, I think that salvation will be determined on a case by case basis by he who said, "forgive them father they know not what they do."

The RCC as an entity or a nation will most likely end in the lake of fire. Only God will decide. And that goes to all who knowingly preach false doctrines and know better,

Wrong my Catholic brother. The real God's Church has the power to save anyone because it is Jesus' body in Colossians Chapter 1:18

we Catholics pray to the saints in heaven because we believe that they are in heaven and it is in the Bible to ask for prayers to your fellow Christians.

most of the ex Catholics here who testified that Catholic teachings are wrong never read the Apologetic of RCC or even ask the experts of Apologetic such as Scott Hahn/Abe Arganiosa/Fr Steve Shott to know the basis of Catholic teachings in the Bible.

if you're intelligent then why you must join a newly established group which originated in 1970s or early 19th Century?

if you believe that Jesus' Church continues from 1st Century then you will join a church that the existence can be traced from 1st century and only Catholic Church/Coptic/Orthodox Church fit these criteria.

If my Evangelical brethren here don't want to go back to my religion because it is so corrupt and hypocritical then they must join the Coptic or Orthodox Church.

 

[jameen]

That is a gross oversimplification. Catholics do believe in the Bible, very much so. I would argue that in some cases, more so than most Protestants. Read Robert Sungenis' books, his book on Catholic Justification is entirely Biblically based and argued. If you were to read his book Not by Scripture Alone, the entire book is argued from Catholic Tradition and Biblically, and Catholic Tradition is the Ancient Church writers (their arguments are completely biblically based) that most Protestants do not even read today.
If you were to read Jean-Luc Marion's books, his books deal with Biblical issues from a Phenomenological perspective and the understanding of what those experiences mean from a philosophical and theological perspective, not to mention the personal perspective.
There are a lot of Protestants that believe the bible "is a bunch of stories invented by men" (whatever that may actually mean), so by that logic are all Protestants going to hell as well? or just that group you believe believes that?
Show me where the Pope has overwritten the bible and that the Catholic Church abrogated such verses for the opinion of the Pope?

Catholics believe in the Bible but never believe that all God's words are written in the Bible. these are called traditions.

but if you will investigate more about the Catholic faith and google Catholic Apologetic then you'll know that Catholic teachings have biblical basis.

 

[MarkWilliams]

That is a gross oversimplification. Catholics do believe in the Bible, very much so. I would argue that in some cases, more so than most Protestants. Read Robert Sungenis' books, his book on Catholic Justification is entirely Biblically based and argued. If you were to read his book Not by Scripture Alone, the entire book is argued from Catholic Tradition and Biblically, and Catholic Tradition is the Ancient Church writers (their arguments are completely biblically based) that most Protestants do not even read today.
If you were to read Jean-Luc Marion's books, his books deal with Biblical issues from a Phenomenological perspective and the understanding of what those experiences mean from a philosophical and theological perspective, not to mention the personal perspective.
There are a lot of Protestants that believe the bible "is a bunch of stories invented by men" (whatever that may actually mean), so by that logic are all Protestants going to hell as well? or just that group you believe believes that?
Show me where the Pope has overwritten the bible and that the Catholic Church abrogated such verses for the opinion of the Pope?

The Pope teaches his followers to pray to Mary, even though Jesus said He was the only way to God. And there are too many other things

That is a gross oversimplification. Catholics do believe in the Bible, very much so. I would argue that in some cases, more so than most Protestants. Read Robert Sungenis' books, his book on Catholic Justification is entirely Biblically based and argued. If you were to read his book Not by Scripture Alone, the entire book is argued from Catholic Tradition and Biblically, and Catholic Tradition is the Ancient Church writers (their arguments are completely biblically based) that most Protestants do not even read today.
If you were to read Jean-Luc Marion's books, his books deal with Biblical issues from a Phenomenological perspective and the understanding of what those experiences mean from a philosophical and theological perspective, not to mention the personal perspective.
There are a lot of Protestants that believe the bible "is a bunch of stories invented by men" (whatever that may actually mean), so by that logic are all Protestants going to hell as well? or just that group you believe believes that?
Show me where the Pope has overwritten the bible and that the Catholic Church abrogated such verses for the opinion of the Pope?

Roman Catholics don't believe the Bible, they believe in the Pope. You can't believe in both, since the Pope doesn't believe the Bible. You need to decide who you will believe, Jesus or the Pope. Both teach opposing doctrines, the Pope teaches salivation by works. Jesus teaches salvation by faith in Him.
Jesus said, no man comes to the Father but by Me, the Pope says you can go through the mother of God. The Pope says give me some money and I will get your loved ones out of purgatory, Jesus says there's no purgatory only heaven and hell.
I could go on all day, listing hundreds of Apostate doctrines but it's no use.
Those who have been blinded by Satan are sealed for eternal torment in hell, they have heard the Gospel and rejected it so there's no hope for them. We shouldn't cast our pearls before swine.

 

[shrume]

This is Calvinism at it's finest, God saves His Elect no matter what the obstacles are. That's exactly what Calvin taught, wheres your problem with it I don't see

The main question is, who are God's elect? Are they people God predetermined will be saved, and have no choice? Or are they people who freely choose to believe?

 

[MarkWilliams]

The main question is, who are God's elect? Are they people God predetermined will be saved, and have no choice? Or are they people who freely choose to believe?

Only the Elect and God know who we are, nobody else can know who we are.
Yes God predetermined who will be saved before He laid the foundations of the world , we had no say in it at all.
Nobody has any free choice in the matter of salvation, it's entirely God's business from start to finish. We are just passengers along for the ride.

 

[Noose]

Non of these so called denominations know what they are doing, not Catholics alone, everyone. If anyone believes and confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord, came in flesh, died for our sins and was resurrected on the third day, they shall be saved. This are the basics but the other knowledge that teachers have piled on top of this can easily lead someone into a ditch- that's why it is said, "the first shall be the last, and the last shall be the first.."

 

[shrume]

Only the Elect and God know who we are, nobody else can know who we are.

Why are Calvinists so convinced they're among the elect?

Yes God predetermined who will be saved before He laid the foundations of the world , we had no say in it at all.

Nobody has any free choice in the matter of salvation, it's entirely God's business from start to finish. We are just passengers along for the ride.

That's the crux of the argument. I do not think it's true.

I believe that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
I believe that God is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9).
I believe God wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11).
I believe God wants people to choose life (Deut 30:19).

 

[MarkWilliams]

Why are Calvinists so convinced they're among the elect?


That's the crux of the argument. I do not think it's true.

I believe that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
I believe that God is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9).
I believe God wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11).
I believe God wants people to choose life (Deut 30:19).

Calvinists are so convinced that we are among the Elect, because God is not a liar.
I believe you have taken all of the above verses out of their intended context.
I'm not going to unpack all of the Scriptures now, because it would take too long to flesh them out.
You already know our position, it has remained the same for centuries. You can read or listen to debates on the matter, just go to sermonaudio.com and browse the debates and you can listen to what the experts say. I don't think we have any theologians or Bible scholars here at CC, so it would be well worth your while to hear the experts.

 

[shrume]

Calvinists are so convinced that we are among the Elect, because God is not a liar.

So are Muslims...

I believe you have taken all of the above verses out of their intended context.

OK. Please explain how I am not understanding them, or how I am taking them out of context.

I'm not going to unpack all of the Scriptures now, because it would take too long to flesh them out.

You can be brief...

You already know our position, it has remained the same for centuries. You can read or listen to debates on the matter, just go to sermonaudio.com and browse the debates and you can listen to what the experts say. I don't think we have any theologians or Bible scholars here at CC, so it would be well worth your while to hear the experts.

There are just as many non-Calvinists on sermonaudio as there are Calvinists. This debate has raged for centuries.

 

[preston39]

This discussion needs a clear, mutually-accepted definition of "Christian" in order to have any value.

D...,

Correct.

A questioner can eaily answer this question if familiar with scriptures.
Anyone who is not in compliance with G-d's word is .........not a Christian....in assessment

 

[MarkWilliams]

So are Muslims...


OK. Please explain how I am not understanding them, or how I am taking them out of context.


You can be brief...


There are just as many non-Calvinists on sermonaudio as there are Calvinists. This debate has raged for centuries.

I feel you won't come to the table with an unbiased attitude.
I don't want to waste my energy providing you with so many Biblicaly sound arguments only to have you ignore their context and revert back to your comfort zone.

 

[shrume]

I feel you won't come to the table with an unbiased attitude.

I can say the same for you...

I don't want to waste my energy providing you with so many Biblicaly sound arguments only to have you ignore their context and revert back to your comfort zone.

In my opinion, there are no biblically sound arguments for Calvinism. I know there are some scripture that Calvinists use to "prove" Calvinism, but I believe they can all be understood in light of free will.

A huge argument is that forced love is not love at all.

 

[preston39]

What if they don't realize the truth about it? Are they doomed? Or will they be saved?

I believe they'll be saved.

s...,

You can believe as you wish. But, that does not comply with G-d's word and won't work.

We must live a righteous life according to G-d's commandments.
I, for one, will not take a chance on a ...little...compliance.
Please show me with scriptures where....a little.... or some...... compliance with His law be acceptable ?