The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[shrume]

Just remember, you will be held accountable for ignoring the literal meaning of scripture and for these false teachings.

So will you, ATW...

 

[CS1]

I disagree that I was born eternal. I think eternal life is in the Son and only in the Son.

I will admit that satan is a strange case to me and he appears to have eternal life apart from God. I cannot explain it.

the context of eternal life is the relationship you have with Christ. rev 20:13-15

13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

what is the context to the Lake of fire ? we must look at scripture to see what it says not what we think. back up to verse 10 of this chapter :

"10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Now we have context to the Lake of Fire that we see in verses 13-15
did those who's names were not found get thrown into the same lake of fire the devil, beast, and the false prophet were placed in to be tormented day and night?

YES!

so you have an issue with the word of God and the context of what is an enternal place where hell , death, hades are thrown into. Forever, to be tormented for every.

hell 101

 

[BenFTW]

If you will recall the conversation:
A poster said: "obliterating everyone equally."
I replied: I don't know about that. Then I brought up the "it will be more tolerable for" verse.
Then you came into the conversation, and brought up the same verse I did.

You haven't grasped what I was saying. And you haven't grasped that I think both sides who insist they are right and the other wrong - I think neither have it all correct.

I am that poster... lol Which when you made that response, it actually further made my point. How can there be degrees of punishment when everyone is meted out the same judgment (being destroyed)?

 

[PennEd]

Why did He call them dead if they were living?



A "living" walking dead person who was born with eternal life in them. That's amazing...

I'm pretty sure you are totally misunderstanding me.

Jesus called them dead, because He knew they were spiritually dead. I think you agree with me that children who die before the age of accountability are going to be in Heaven. I believe that's what Paul was referring to when he said he was ALIVE before he knew about the law.

So for all intents and purposes, we are born spiritually alive until we are held accountable by the knowledge of the Law. That's what Paul told us.

 

[shrume]

I am that poster... lol Which when you made that response, it actually further made my point. How can there be degrees of punishment when everyone is meted out the same judgment (being destroyed)?

People will be punished for varying lengths of time before they die the permanent death.

What does the Bible say the wages of sin is?

And lets turn your question around: How can there be varying degrees of punishment when everyone is suffering -eternal- torments?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

the context of eternal life is the relationship you have with Christ. rev 20:13-15

13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

what is the context to the Lake of fire ? we must look at scripture to see what it says not what we think. back up to verse 10 of this chapter :

"10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Now we have context to the Lake of Fire that we see in verses 13-15
did those who's names were not found get thrown into the same lake of fire the devil, beast, and the false prophet were placed in to be tormented day and night?

YES!

so you have an issue with the word of God and the context of what is an enternal place where hell , death, hades are thrown into. Forever, to be tormented for every.

hell 101

No...I don't have an issue with the word of God. And it does say the unholy trinity will be in torture forever and ever. As I said, from all I read, satan does seem to be an eternal being, so I can understand him being...indestructible, and therefore tortured forever.

It does not however, specifically say about all the others that have a part in the lake of fire, that they are in torture forever. (Or at least not that I've found). And, it doesn't fit with humans, who don't have eternity in them (except by the new birth), to be eternal and therefore be tormented forever and ever.

 

[BenFTW]

People will be punished for varying lengths of time before they die the permanent death.

What does the Bible say the wages of sin is?

And lets turn your question around: How can there be varying degrees of punishment when everyone is suffering -eternal- torments?

One avenue that we can go down is that we can say that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world (as scripture says), and therefore the only sin people are really being judged for is their rejection of the Gospel. Same crime, equal punishment.

Of course, we might also conclude that since they have not received Jesus' sacrifice by faith, it is not attributed to their account and therefore are liable, and must face the consequences of their sins (all of them). Yet, if the world is condemned already being outside of Christ, then being in Christ is the mark (a righteousness that is of faith). Not that their sins don't matter, but Jesus matters. This would make them all guilty of the same crime, rejection of the Son. The one sin that truly is unpardonable, unbelief (from sinners).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am that poster... lol Which when you made that response, it actually further made my point. How can there be degrees of punishment when everyone is meted out the same judgment (being destroyed)?

Yes, I am the one who brought up the verse. It was a...rebuttal to the statement about "obliterating everyone equally," which I said I didn't know about (wasn't sure about), because of the verse I gave.

Do you understand that I was rebutting your statement of "obliterating everyone equally" by giving a verse that seemed to suggest that does not happen? I did not unwittingly further your point. I knew exactly what I was doing.

You're an odd duck sometimes...

 

[BenFTW]

Yes, I am the one who brought up the verse. It was a...rebuttal to the statement about "obliterating everyone equally," which I said I didn't know about (wasn't sure about), because of the verse I gave.

Do you understand that I was rebutting your statement of "obliterating everyone equally" by giving a verse that seemed to suggest that does not happen? I did not unwittingly further your point. I knew exactly what I was doing.

You're an odd duck sometimes...

You were refuting people of the Annihilation perspective, not me. Maybe you didn't catch that I was pointing out possible flaws in such doctrine. Obliterating everyone, humans/sinners, equally is the belief system of Annihilationists. Those outside of Christ, according to them, cease to exist.

Quack.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It does not however, specifically say about all the others that have a part in the lake of fire, that they are in torture forever.

God expects us to make simple deductions from what He has revealed. So all you have to do is put the two passages together and see that they are speaking about the same thing. Why are you expecting redundancy? Please note:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10).

You accept this as eternal torment. Fine. Now look at this verse:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

So if it is the same Lake of Fire (which it is) then why should there be any difference between the eternal torment of angelic beings and human beings?

Why are you expecting the second verse to repeat: and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever?

 

[shrume]

One avenue that we can go down is that we can say that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world (as scripture says), and therefore the only sin people are really being judged for is their rejection of the Gospel. Same crime, equal punishment.

Of course, we might also conclude that since they have not received Jesus' sacrifice by faith, it is not attributed to their account and therefore are liable, and must face the consequences of their sins (all of them). Yet, if the world is condemned already being outside of Christ, then being in Christ is the mark (a righteousness that is of faith). Not that their sins don't matter, but Jesus matters. This would make them all guilty of the same crime, rejection of the Son. The one sin that truly is unpardonable, unbelief (from sinners).

But the Bible says in MANY places that we reap what we sow. Also, see Luke 12:45-48

 

[BenFTW]

But the Bible says in MANY places that we reap what we sow. Also, see Luke 12:45-48

I'm not sure I understand you. This life has consequences for those partaking in sin. Natural consequences. So yes, people reap what they sow.

 

[shrume]

I'm not sure I understand you. This life has consequences for those partaking in sin. Natural consequences. So yes, people reap what they sow.

It pertains to the future as well.

People who go out of their way to be evil will be punished more severely than someone who was a "good person" but chose not to believe.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

The Torah (5 books) is only a small (but important) part of the whole Bible. In order to fully understand the afterlife, Christians must go from Genesis to Revelation.

In Genesis 2:17 we read "thou shalt surely die". In Rev 20:14 we read "this is the second death". So now we must carefully connect Genesis to Revelation. Since the Jews reject Christ and reject the New Testament, they simply do not have the full truth about the afterlife. There are intimations of "fire and brimstone" in the OT, but spiritual truth is spiritually discerned, and the natural man cannot understand spiritual truth.

Thank you for the Genesis scripture.
What then of the Jews? Does their Torah not explain the afterlife to them?

 

[garee]

I'm pretty sure you are totally misunderstanding me.

Jesus called them dead, because He knew they were spiritually dead. I think you agree with me that children who die before the age of accountability are going to be in Heaven. I believe that's what Paul was referring to when he said he was ALIVE before he knew about the law.

So for all intents and purposes, we are born spiritually alive until we are held accountable by the knowledge of the Law. That's what Paul told us.

We are a born with temporal corrupted spirit life (approx. 70 years) until the law came and took away any confidence of having any spirit life after we die .If a person does not receive a new incorruptible spirit before they die they will never rise to the house their new born again spirit in their incorruptible body (not flesh and blood)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You were refuting people of the Annihilation perspective, not me. Maybe you didn't catch that I was pointing out possible flaws in such doctrine. Obliterating everyone, humans/sinners, equally is the belief system of Annihilationists. Those outside of Christ, according to them, cease to exist.

Quack.

Yes, I did get that you thought you were pointing out a possible flaw in the belief of annihilationism by repeating my own point and verse.

No, I wasn't refuting annihilationism...I was refuting your insistence that annihilation necessarily and absolutely had to be obliterating everyone equally. For all I know Hitler and Dahmer don't get the mercy of annihilation and Mrs. Cafferty from up the street does get that mercy.

 

[garee]

Thank you for the Genesis scripture.
What then of the Jews? Does their Torah not explain the afterlife to them?

We are not to go above that which is written by the oral traditions of the jewish fathe,.having another authority other than prophecy as the word of God alone simply make the word of God without effect .

Can't serve two teaching masters .God's tradition the Bible and the oral traditions of men as the law of the fathers.

Hate one ;love the other or ;love one hate the other

 

[shrume]

Yes, I did get that you thought you were pointing out a possible flaw in the belief of annihilationism by repeating my own point and verse.

No, I wasn't refuting annihilationism...I was refuting your insistence that annihilation necessarily and absolutely had to be obliterating everyone equally. For all I know Hitler and Dahmer don't get the mercy of annihilation and Mrs. Cafferty from up the street does get that mercy.

The wages of sin is death (except for Hitler and Dahmer).

G'nite, SBG

 

[BenFTW]

Yes, I did get that you thought you were pointing out a possible flaw in the belief of annihilationism by repeating my own point and verse.

No, I wasn't refuting annihilationism...I was refuting your insistence that annihilation necessarily and absolutely had to be obliterating everyone equally. For all I know Hitler and Dahmer don't get the mercy of annihilation and Mrs. Cafferty from up the street does get that mercy.

But... you were, with the verse intentionally or not, revealed a flaw in annihilationism. Just saying. lol In your stance, from what I see, you make room for some being destroyed and others not. What happened to the whole "the penalty for sin is death" chant, from annihilationists? Now we are introducing extinction as a form of mercy?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

God expects us to make simple deductions from what He has revealed. So all you have to do is put the two passages together and see that they are speaking about the same thing. Why are you expecting redundancy? Please note:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10).

You accept this as eternal torment. Fine. Now look at this verse:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

So if it is the same Lake of Fire (which it is) then why should there be any difference between the eternal torment of angelic beings and human beings?

Why are you expecting the second verse to repeat: and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever?

Because "shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" sounds quite different than: "this is the second death."

Maybe you are right and God expects us to make simple deductions. I don't know, you could be right about that. But this has gone beyond a simple deduction in my opinion.