Ye shall know them by their fruits

[MarkWilliams]

How can we know who the true believers are.
Jesus said we would know them by their fruits, if a person professes to believe but isn't being conformed to the image of Christ then we can know they are not true believers.
A true believer will forsake everything and put the will of God above everything. That's not very popular these days, most "Christians" have Jesus as a buddy who helps them when they get into trouble but they don't want Him to interfere with their plans.
Today's mega Churches make the unbeliever comfortable in their sins, they don't confront sin and they don't preach repentance. They would never say, you must lose your life to gain it and they would never say you must give your life to Christ.
The best way to fill a Church is to embrace everyone exactly as they are and give them affirmation, just don't confront their life of sin.
It's very rare to find a true believer these days, it's just as Christ said it would be in the last days. many would fall away and the love of many would grow cold.
God will accept nothing less than 100% of our love, our minds, our strength and soul. I wonder how many true believers there are in the world. I think we would all be shocked to find out how few there really are.

 

[whatev]

You had me all the way until "today's mega-church." The definition of a "mega-church" is any church with over 1500 people. In which case, I am a member of a mega-church.

I am a member, and yet I do not go to Joel Olsteen kinds of "services." I live in a large city, go to a church that preaches the gospel by teaching the Bible. And I mean "teaching the Bible," as in starts at Gen. 1, works to Rev. 22, and returns back to Gen. 1. Given it's just a few verses every week, it takes generations to do that. But that's what we do.

And then we do the fruit of the spirit through ministry--helping the poor, disabled, homeless, people stuck in sin, and caring for them, realizing them are us! We minister outwardly and inwardly. And we're fine knowing we all come short of what the Lord wants from us, but have fellowship with him and fellowship with one another so we can gather our strength to reject our sinful ways and keep on following. We're not "comfortable" in our sin. We know he is the way, and he is the one who breaks sinful habits. But, I can attest to it being good not having to hide I'm a sinner from my brothers and sisters because they seem good and I don't. We all know no one is as good a they seem, but there is the Lord who helps us grow and end the sin cycles. That is our comfort.

And we do grow as a church. We grow as people because we're given the grace to do that, and grow in numbers because of the grace to do that too. And when we get a little too crowded for three services on Sunday, it's time to start another church. We are the daughter churh of another era. And we are the parent church of 16 other churches in our city.

Please don't judge "mega-churches" as if we're all heretical like Olsteen or one of the multitude of money-grubbing false teachers. After all, Jerusalem had a mega-church before the tribulation.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

How can we know who the true believers are.
Jesus said we would know them by their fruits, if a person professes to believe but isn't being conformed to the image of Christ then we can know they are not true believers.
A true believer will forsake everything and put the will of God above everything. That's not very popular these days, most "Christians" have Jesus as a buddy who helps them when they get into trouble but they don't want Him to interfere with their plans.
Today's mega Churches make the unbeliever comfortable in their sins, they don't confront sin and they don't preach repentance. They would never say, you must lose your life to gain it and they would never say you must give your life to Christ.
The best way to fill a Church is to embrace everyone exactly as they are and give them affirmation, just don't confront their life of sin.
It's very rare to find a true believer these days, it's just as Christ said it would be in the last days. many would fall away and the love of many would grow cold.
God will accept nothing less than 100% of our love, our minds, our strength and soul. I wonder how many true believers there are in the world. I think we would all be shocked to find out how few there really are.

yeah....you know Jesus said that is not our job really...you might remember the wheat and chaff parable?

I am positive there are many more 'true' believers than those who say otherwise might know

Jesus uses righteous judgement when He looks on the heart. I am sure we have all had times in our life when we might not have wanted others to look on our 'heart' but God saw it then too

I kind of cringe when I read posts like yours

I do

if anyone never lives up to the expectations of Christians it would actually be......other Christians

we are often like David...just shocked..and then we find out that we are the one that is falling short

 

[Jackson123]

The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love. It is not easy to judge love.

 

[posthuman]

With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; ​

with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.​

(2 Samuel 22:26)​

 

[Deuteronomy]

You had me all the way until "today's mega-church." The definition of a "mega-church" is any church with over 1500 people. In which case, I am a member of a mega-church.

I am a member, and yet I do not go to Joel Olsteen kinds of "services." I live in a large city, go to a church that preaches the gospel by teaching the Bible. And I mean "teaching the Bible," as in starts at Gen. 1, works to Rev. 22, and returns back to Gen. 1. Given it's just a few verses every week, it takes generations to do that. But that's what we do.

And then we do the fruit of the spirit through ministry--helping the poor, disabled, homeless, people stuck in sin, and caring for them, realizing them are us! We minister outwardly and inwardly. And we're fine knowing we all come short of what the Lord wants from us, but have fellowship with him and fellowship with one another so we can gather our strength to reject our sinful ways and keep on following. We're not "comfortable" in our sin. We know he is the way, and he is the one who breaks sinful habits. But, I can attest to it being good not having to hide I'm a sinner from my brothers and sisters because they seem good and I don't. We all know no one is as good a they seem, but there is the Lord who helps us grow and end the sin cycles. That is our comfort.

And we do grow as a church. We grow as people because we're given the grace to do that, and grow in numbers because of the grace to do that too. And when we get a little too crowded for three services on Sunday, it's time to start another church. We are the daughter churh of another era. And we are the parent church of 16 other churches in our city.

Please don't judge "mega-churches" as if we're all heretical like Olsteen or one of the multitude of money-grubbing false teachers. After all, Jerusalem had a mega-church before the tribulation.

Hi Whatev, I agree, all mega-churches are not the same. We have a monster mega-church right down the road from me, and man do they know how to raise $$. But they do great things with it, like feeding the homeless, daily in fact.

*(in this area, the city provides one meal for the homeless, and this mega-church provides .. prepares, serves and completely pays for .. the other meal, 365 days per year).

The biggest problem as I see it (for this mega-church AND many, many others too) is the ability for many, both members and regular visitors alike, to slip in-between the cracks, so to speak, and exist almost like strangers among the flock. In fact, it is a sad and well-known fact that many who have gotten themselves into trouble in other churches (due to sinful behavior and the fact that they don't want to change), end up at our mega-church, because there, they can normally exist completely 'under the radar' for as long as they want to, still living in sin.

I went to Pastor Chuck Swindoll's mega-church in California. The way this problem was handled there was by creating smaller congregations (of 200 or less) within the larger congregation. Each of these smaller congregations had their own pastors, attended the big church services together, did Bible Study, prayer, Sunday School, outreach, etc., together, just like a normal congregation of 200 would do. Smart

Of course, there are plenty of the Joel Olsteen variety of mega-churches out there too, unfortunately

~Deut

 

[MattforJesus]

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Even back then Jesus said that there are few that find eternal life, so how much less today when many who claim Christ are relaxed in their walk with Christ, wanting to hold unto sin and think they are right with God.

Also notice it says few there be that find it, all the while saying God chose them to be saved without their choice, but then why do they have to find it.

We have a choice, and it is that belief that God chose them without their choice in the beginning that is the cause for many hypocrites, millions of them, for they think since they have been chosen without their choice they can never fall so they engage in sin, and enjoy it, and then say they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God.

But they sin on purpose, and do not try to beat it, and if they hate sin they can beat sin by the Spirit.

The Bible says that what seals the saints by the Spirit is they depart from iniquity, and a Spirit led life will not sin, and only if they are led of the Spirit are they saved.

But we see them holding unto sin, and enjoying it, and thinking they are right with God, but then they are not led of the Spirit.

But I have to watch myself for I do not want to act like holier than thou, but I am a human too that has to watch my lifestyle,

 

[Deuteronomy]

The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love. It is not easy to judge love.

Hi Jackson, I agree (with an exception), because this idea has also created a problem for us as Christians these days, hasn't it! The reason it has is because the Biblical/Godly kind of "love (agape) .. does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth" .. 1 Corinthians 13:6.

It seems to me that truly "loving" others (as Jesus would have us do) never means making someone "feel good" about themselves and their lives, especially if they are involved in some flavor of ongoing sin that they have no desire to give up/surrender to Christ. In fact, as I think about it, that would actually be "hating" them instead, wouldn't it!

~Deut

​

 

[Jackson123]

Hi Jackson, I agree (with an exception), because this idea has also created a problem for us as Christians these days, hasn't it! The reason it has is because the Biblical/Godly kind of "love (agape) .. does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth" .. 1 Corinthians 13:6.

It seems to me that truly "loving" others (as Jesus would have us do) never means making someone "feel good" about themselves and their lives, especially if they are involved in some flavor of ongoing sin that they have no desire to give up/surrender to Christ. In fact, as I think about it, that would actually be "hating" them instead, wouldn't it!

~Deut

​

I do not believe a man or branch able to produce fruit or agape love of itself, John 15 say that, and Jesus never lie. So only if a branch abide to the vine will bear fruit or agape love.

Than why Buddist helping the poor?

It prove helping the poor may not agape love.

So does the mega church.

 

[Embankment]

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Even back then Jesus said that there are few that find eternal life, so how much less today when many who claim Christ are relaxed in their walk with Christ, wanting to hold unto sin and think they are right with God.

Also notice it says few there be that find it, all the while saying God chose them to be saved without their choice, but then why do they have to find it.

We have a choice, and it is that belief that God chose them without their choice in the beginning that is the cause for many hypocrites, millions of them, for they think since they have been chosen without their choice they can never fall so they engage in sin, and enjoy it, and then say they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God.

But they sin on purpose, and do not try to beat it, and if they hate sin they can beat sin by the Spirit.

The Bible says that what seals the saints by the Spirit is they depart from iniquity, and a Spirit led life will not sin, and only if they are led of the Spirit are they saved.

But we see them holding unto sin, and enjoying it, and thinking they are right with God, but then they are not led of the Spirit.

But I have to watch myself for I do not want to act like holier than thou, but I am a human too that has to watch my lifestyle,

In Jesus day knowone was saved.
Salvation Was offered only after Jesus' death.

 

[shrume]

In Jesus day knowone was saved.
Salvation Was offered only after Jesus' death.

Poor Moses, Abraham, David, etc.

 

[oldethennew]

bite your own bone = go home and PG!!!

 

[Embankment]

Poor Moses, Abraham, David, etc.

Yes!

 

[oldethennew]

How can we know who the true believers are.
Jesus said we would know them by their fruits, if a person professes to believe but isn't being conformed to the image of Christ then we can know they are not true believers.
A true believer will forsake everything and put the will of God above everything. That's not very popular these days, most "Christians" have Jesus as a buddy who helps them when they get into trouble but they don't want Him to interfere with their plans.
Today's mega Churches make the unbeliever comfortable in their sins, they don't confront sin and they don't preach repentance. They would never say, you must lose your life to gain it and they would never say you must give your life to Christ.
The best way to fill a Church is to embrace everyone exactly as they are and give them affirmation, just don't confront their life of sin.
It's very rare to find a true believer these days, it's just as Christ said it would be in the last days. many would fall away and the love of many would grow cold.
God will accept nothing less than 100% of our love, our minds, our strength and soul. I wonder how many true believers there are in the world. I think we would all be shocked to find out how few there really are.

========================================

check yourself, and never 'assume'...

 

[tourist]

In Jesus day knowone was saved.
Salvation Was offered only after Jesus' death.

God did take Enoch and Elijah and Moses was spotted in Heaven also so I guess they made out OK. Jesus died for the sins of the world, past, present and future. Your perception of salvation is incorrect.

 

[shrume]

Yes!

You can’t possibly be suggesting that nobody in the OT will be saved. Are you?

I hope I’m just missing something somewhere...

 

[Deuteronomy]

I do not believe a man or branch able to produce fruit or agape love

I agree. The problem, as I see it anyway, is that many today think that "loving" others not only means accepting them, but accepting their sinful behavior as "ok" (even when the Bible is clear that it isn't "ok" with God .. cf
1 Corinthians 6:9-10). What they are 'actually' doing is hating (in the guise of loving), because they don't want to offend anyone and/or they are afraid to take a stand for eternal, Biblical truth in light of the fickle "truth" du jour that the world insists that we believe instead.

For their sake, as well as everyone else's, we must stand for God's truth and for His righteousness, because if 'we' don't, who will? Like Burke said, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

~Deut

...........Psalm 12
.........."8 The wicked strut about on every side when vileness is exulted among the sons of men.

 

[jameen]

Today's mega Churches make the unbeliever comfortable in their sins, they don't confront sin and they don't preach repentance. They would never say, you must lose your life to gain it and they would never say you must give your life to Christ.
The best way to fill a Church is to embrace everyone exactly as they are and give them affirmation, just don't confront their life of sin.
It's very rare to find a true believer these days, it's just as Christ said it would be in the last days. many would fall away and the love of many would grow cold.
God will accept nothing less than 100% of our love, our minds, our strength and soul. I wonder how many true believers there are in the world. I think we would all be shocked to find out how few there really are.

Because most if not all pastors of these mega churches are deceivers whose god is their belly or self interest whose end will be their destruction.

St. Peter warned once in the Bible that these people use their members as merchandise.

if I were you, if you will just join a church then join a church whose existence can be traced back from the 1st century era.

only Catholic or Orthodox Church are the only churches whose existence can be traced back to 1st century and you need to investigate with an open mind to determine which of the 2 is the real continuation of the 1st century Christian Church.

If you are a former Catholic then I advise you to research on the net to know how Catholic teachings have Biblical basis (they are called Catholic Apologetic) before concluding that Catholic Church's teachings are unbiblical/paganic or both.

you may ask former Protestants or from any Bible Based groups such as Scott Hahn and priests who are experts in Apologetic of RCC such as Fr. Steve Shott and Fr. Abe Arganiosa.

 

[Embankment]

You can’t possibly be suggesting that nobody in the OT will be saved. Are you?

I hope I’m just missing something somewhere...

Don't see how they could. Jesus had not cleansed them yet.
We also have Hebrews 11
And John 3:13.
They may have risen after Jesus died , not certain on that.

 

[MarkWilliams]

Because most if not all pastors of these mega churches are deceivers whose god is their belly or self interest whose end will be their destruction.

St. Peter warned once in the Bible that these people use their members as merchandise.

if I were you, if you will just join a church then join a church whose existence can be traced back from the 1st century era.

only Catholic or Orthodox Church are the only churches whose existence can be traced back to 1st century and you need to investigate with an open mind to determine which of the 2 is the real continuation of the 1st century Christian Church.

If you are a former Catholic then I advise you to research on the net to know how Catholic teachings have Biblical basis (they are called Catholic Apologetic) before concluding that Catholic Church's teachings are unbiblical/paganic or both.

you may ask former Protestants or from any Bible Based groups such as Scott Hahn and priests who are experts in Apologetic of RCC such as Fr. Steve Shott and Fr. Abe Arganiosa.

I left the Catholic Church because it's teachings conflict with the Bible. The Bible says, let every man be a liar and let God be true so when the Pope makes claims that are not Biblicaly sound I have to ignore him and hold to the Holy Scriptures.
The Catholic Church teaches so many things that are not Biblical. The more I compared it's teachings to the Bible the more evident it became to me that it was an apostate Church.