Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,039
4,456
113
That's right good example.

A woman is pregnant.


She carries her baby for a while, then has an abortion.


She is no longer pregnant.



Thanks for making my point.



JPT
So God aborts his Kids?

If someone aborts a child before it is born then it is not born (ps I believe aborted children are in heaven)

However before the child is born it is still a child.

So a child of God is a child of God and he would never abort them.

The point you try to make is actually shocking and offensive.
God is not a murderer.
He is the sustainer of life.
He causes the sun to shine on the righteous and the wicked.

I cannot believe what you have just posted.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
A "True Christian will Persevere" and we were "Sealed" for the day of redemption, true gospel.

Ephesians4:30
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption"
Ask yourself if the Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of the wicked and then you will understand why we are told not to grieve the Holy Spirit and to abstain from all appearance of evil.
 

Metternich

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2018
216
10
18
You can post what you believe until the cows come home and chickens roost....you can make moot statements like the last thing you stated above and let me tell you something...YOU will NEVER convince me that salvation can be lost....EVER....WHY? Because the bible does not teach a salvation that can be lost or forfeit in context. You prove every time you speak man that you do not understand the simple truth that the word SAVED does not ALWAYS apply unto the salvation of the Spirit/Soul.....so.....you are wasting you time engaging me on this subject...I am fully honest with the word and let it take me where it takes me...I have always been willing to admit error and or change my mind on any subject in the bible....I have studied this every which way to Sunday because I want to know the truth and DO not believe it will jive to stand before the Lord and say...well so and so believed this or this is what the commentary said etc....the bible overwhelmingly teaches the security of the believer based upon the power, promises and words of Christ in Context.....NOT YOU nor anyone else that believes salvation can be lost like a dime on the street and or forfeited like freedom when one goes to jail WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND....the amount of truth that must be rejected, denied, explained away, twisted, embellished, falsified etc. to believe and push that goes beyond ridiculous into a category that I will not name to keep from being censured or banned.
What is your analysis of 2 Pet 2:20-22

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
I do not see how it matters who these people were before they escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ. We are all sinners before we come to Christ. But Peter says they escaped (past tense) the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus. If this is not the textbook definition of a truly saved Christian I do not know what is.

He then says that if they are again entangled in the pollutions of the world then this state is worse than the first. The first condition
was that of unbelief and ultimate damnation. That must mean that a believer who turns back from the holy commandment delivered to them they will be damned to a lower place in hell than those who never believed
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,039
4,456
113
Ask yourself if the Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of the wicked and then you will understand why we are told not to grieve the Holy Spirit and to abstain from all appearance of evil.
The Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in the hearts of the wicked, therefore they can't grieve him.

A believer can grieve the Holy Spirit and if they do so are you saying they are wicked?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
So God aborts his Kids?

If someone aborts a child before it is born then it is not born (ps I believe aborted children are in heaven)

However before the child is born it is still a child.

So a child of God is a child of God and he would never abort them.

The point you try to make is actually shocking and offensive.
God is not a murderer.
He is the sustainer of life.
He causes the sun to shine on the righteous and the wicked.

I cannot believe what you have just posted.
BillG did not say God aborted the child, he said, "If someone aborts a child before it is born".

Now, suppose that "someone" was a believer in Eternal Salvation, what then, because remember, we are told not to grieve the Holy Spirit?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
The Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in the hearts of the wicked, therefore they can't grieve him.

A believer can grieve the Holy Spirit and if they do so are you saying they are wicked?
I'm saying the Holy Spirit that seals, will no longer dwell in that persons heart, so, no longer sealed by the Holy Spirit.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,039
4,456
113
Go back and read what I said.

The pregnant woman chose to abort her child.

Likewise a Christian can choose the depart from Christ.


JPT
No you go back and read my post.

Abortion is murder. God does not abort his kids.

Rejecting or departing from Jesus is not abortion.

You really have chosen a horrible way to make your point.

An aborted child has no choice. They have never had the chance to to depart from their mother or father.

The aborted child left the mother when it was killed and is now with God.

It is your believe that a child of God can depart from Jesus, that is what you believe, but to correlate that with abortion is shocking, to me totally offensive.

I cannot believe a brother in Jesus could say such a thing.

That a mother who aborts a child is the same as a believer who rejected Jesus.

Shocking indeed
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,039
4,456
113
I'm saying the Holy Spirit that seals, will no longer dwell in that persons heart, so, no longer sealed by the Holy Spirit.
But when does that happen?

Can you judge that?

I was written off by people when I stopped going to church, never lost my faith.
In fact before that I had a fruitful ministry in church.

Truth is we can't judge, we need to seek out those MIA.
Be doctors and nurses.

I think theological we differ but I hope we are the same.
Seek out a fellow beliver MIA.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
That a mother who aborts a child is the same as a believer who rejected Jesus.

Shocking indeed
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:6 KJV)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,039
4,456
113
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:6 KJV)
So that relates to a mother aborting their unborn child?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Option 1 = Believe and be saved

Option 2 = Believe for a while, and be saved for a while.


Option meaning you choose to opt to do.


Those who do nothing, have the seed stolen and there is no change in their condition, because they opted to do nothing.



JPT
LOOSE YOUR PRE-SUPPOSITIONS. The People who taught you that about "Eternal Security and Once Saved Always Saved", KNEW A GREAT DEAL LESS THAN YOU DO, and in fact they without knowing it, were teaching LIES about our Beliefs.

The Seed that was STOLEN were Stolen from those WHO WERE NEVER SAVED.

I told you, what we believe, about the Parable of the SOWER, ONLY THE GOOD SOIL is a BORN AGAIN BELIEVER. All three of the other soils were Pretend Christians and the one that was stone cold UNBELIEVER. Go back and reread the explanation of our BELIEFS about SALVATION. You have chosen to believe your false prophet, instead of us who KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WE TEACH AND BELIEVE.

Mark 4:13-20(CSBBible)
13 Then he said to them: "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand all of the parables?
14 The sower sows the word.
15 Some are like the word sown on the path. When they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word sown in them.
16 And others are like seed sown on rocky ground. When they hear the word, immediately they receive it with joy.
17 But they have no root; they are short-lived. When distress or persecution comes because of the word, they immediately fall away.
18 Others are like seed sown among thorns; these are the ones who hear the word,
19 but the worries of this age, the deceitfulness of wealth, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
20 And those like seed sown on good ground
hear the word, welcome it, and produce fruit thirty, sixty, and a hundred times what was sown."



You can see, ONLY THE LAST SOIL MENTIONED is a true Born Again Christian. The first type of soil is a stone cold Unbeliever, and the NEXT TWO are those that start off as Church going Pretend Christians, but fall away. Why do we put up with phony Christians in our Midst? BECAUSE OUR LORD WILL TAKE SOME, AS THEY ARE TAUGHT THE WORD, and bring some to become genuine Born Again Christians.


Romans 10:14-17 (HCSB)
14 But how can they call on Him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who announce the gospel of good things!
16 But all did not obey the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message?
17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.


We know their are Phony Pretend Christians in our midst, and we want them there. We rejoice every time one genuinely turns to repent, receiving JESUS as LORD (Master), out of LOVE FOR HIM. The NARROW GATE, is apparently much NARROWER than you ever thought. We go through the NARROW GATE single file, so do not JUDGE us by the GROUP sitting on our pews; because we welcome the pretenders to sit there HEARING THE WORD.

You want proof that ONLY those who HEAR THE WORD, WELCOME IT, and PRODUCE FRUIT are those who are BORN AGAIN?

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 14:23-24 (HCSB)
23 Jesus answered, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
24 The one who doesn’t love Me will not keep My words. The word that you hear is not Mine but is from the Father who sent Me.

Galatians 5:14 (HCSB)
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.

1 John 2:5 (NKJV)
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

James 1:25 (HCSB)
25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but one who does ⌊good⌋ works—this person will be blessed in what he does.

Matthew 7:16 (HCSB)
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.


No, we do not believe anyone can be SAVED by works, because we are saved the moment we excercise SAVING FAITH, before any works can be done.

But that NEW ETERNALLY ALIVE, Born Again, Human Spirit, WILL have GOD LOVE controlling it, Rom. 5:5, so by our love they will know us. LOVE is the PRIMARILY FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and therefore, LOVE can be one of the Yardsticks that they will KNOW US BY.

Look how many times GOD mentioned LOVE in these VERSES:

1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,





 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,039
4,456
113
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:6 KJV)
Have you actually ready what JPT said regarding abortion?

There was not even a reference to woman who aborts was in fact a believer.

They being the case they can't fall away and crucify Jesus afresh
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
So that relates to a mother aborting their unborn child?
Afraid so. The mother who aborted her unborn child said ......, and the Jews said "crucify him."

I need to go the bed, sorry.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,039
4,456
113
Afraid so. The mother who aborted her unborn child said ......, and the Jews said "crucify him."

I need to go the bed, sorry.
Sleep well, I'm soon off.

If you get a chance read post 65,433.

And if you get a chance read the posts from when he first posted about abortion.

Have a good day tomorrow and a blessed sleep.

Bill
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
That's like saying a woman is pregnant, "a little bit" she either is or she is not pregnant.

You are either "born again" or your not born again, and eternal salvation is eternal, not maybe its eternal.
Have you actually ready what JPT said regarding abortion?

There was not even a reference to woman who aborts was in fact a believer.

They being the case they can't fall away and crucify Jesus afresh
The woman was pregnant and then she did something and was no longer pregnant. (Hypothetical)

The believer was saved and then they did something and they were no longer saved.

In both cases it is impossible to return to their former condition.

Need to go.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Ask yourself if the Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of the wicked and then you will understand why we are told not to grieve the Holy Spirit and to abstain from all appearance of evil.
"if the Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of the wicked?"

You have derailed the Gospel off into no mans land, Bad interpretation of scripture = Bad application of scripture. This conversation was over even before it began. Strange and foreign gospel for sure.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
The woman was pregnant and then she did something and was no longer pregnant. (Hypothetical)

The believer was saved and then they did something and they were no longer saved.

In both cases it is impossible to return to their former condition.

Need to go.
Hypothetical fake stories are hearsay, no proof it ever could happen and no eyewitnesses, just the truth, and no bologna sandwich please = fake gospel.

This conversation is over and done.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
That's right good example.

A woman is pregnant.


She carries her baby for a while, then has an abortion.


She is no longer pregnant.



Thanks for making my point.



JPT
The point is, "you cannot be a little bit born again." you missed the point as you do with the gospel also.

You are presenting a "false gospel" - thanks for making my point