The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[Ahwatukee]

Yes, I believe what the bible states. No offense taken.

This is what always bothers me though. For every verse, there are verses in tension to it, verses that appear contradictory. And I am like a dog with a bone until I can understand them together. I don't like the whole set up in here where one side favors some of the verses and the other side favors the ones in tension to them and then they just argue back and forth over and over again about the certain topic they want to argue about.

I don't think any semblance of unity can ever be won that way.

So if some verses seem to speak of people in torturous pain and agony forever and ever and other verses seem to speak of eternal death, I want to understand them together, not just pick one side and begin firing away at others.

I don't want to argue, I want to understand.

I can appreciate that. So, please provide an example of scriptures as you say that are "in tension", which I believe you mean are in contradiction or contention with each other. Please provide any scriptures like that. If you have something like this, there are other scriptures that will clear up any contentions. This is done through comparing and cross-referencing all related scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion.

 

[Magenta]

Again, all that you are doing is interpreting the word "destroyed" to mean extinction or annihilation. What does the actual Hebrew word mean behind those translated words? It real doesn't matter though, because we already have the meaning used in the Greek. Your just saying destroy = extinction. That's all your doing.

That is NOT all I am doing and once again you are shown to be a liar for saying so.

 

[Deade]

Here is the proof from Scripture. Are you going to deny it?

REVELATION 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8).

Is there eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire for the unrighteous? Only a person who refuses to believe the Bible will deny this.

Revelation 14:9,10 Just say they will be tormented in the presents of angels. 11 says the smoke of their torment, like a memorial, a pictograph preserved by God as a memorial. The same thing is addressed in Mark

Mark 9:43,44 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Having a maggot last forever, come on get real, this is a memorial, taped, filmed archived digitally or maybe just remembered by God.
You call this arising out of a cult, your just a child of the RCC cult, along with Calvin, Luther etc...

 

[shrume]

Again, all that you are doing is interpreting the word "destroyed" to mean extinction or annihilation. What does the actual Hebrew word mean behind those translated words? It real doesn't matter though, because we already have the meaning used in the Greek. Your just saying destroy = extinction. That's all your doing.

You need to expand your horizons a little when looking for the definitions of Greek and Hebrew words. In other words, research more thoroughly.

But you won't... You would have to admit you were wrong.

It is ludicrous to believe that death is conscious existence.

And please understand that I do think you're right in much of your eschatological understanding.

But you are dead wrong (pun intended.. ) on what death is.

 

[Magenta]

Do you realize that outer darkness is the opposite of a lake of fire. Fire means light. Darkness is the absence of fire. So you should be trying to learn more rather than teach what you don't understand.

They will also say something cannot be burning if it is not being burned up as if God never revealed Himself in a bush that burned while not being consumed. They are so dogmatic in what they believe, and then to further puff themselves up, pretend what we believe does not have Scriptural support.

 

[Ahwatukee]

And the other thing that bothers me dcon, is that eternal life is in the Son and I don't think men are born with eternal life in them. I see being eternally alive/existing as having eternal life. Admittedly, men say that eternal life will be of torture and torment, but it is still eternal life.

Hello again Stunnedbygrace,

As I have stated many times before, the error is that death is not a state of life, but is a state of conscious existence. Both life and death are states of conscious existence which are determined by an individuals status with God. Those who die without being reconciled to God will exist in the state of death, which again is not non-existence or extinction, but the state of eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. The state of death has nothing to do with being non-existence. Life is also a state of existence. What makes it life opposed to death, is that the individual will exist in the presence of God, having well being, joy in the kingdom of God. Death is conscious existence in complete loss of well being in separation from God in the lake of fire.

You need to get the human idea of death as being non-existence out of your head and start understanding it from a Biblical definition.

 

[Magenta]

And the other thing that bothers me dcon, is that eternal life is in the Son and I don't think men are born with eternal life in them. I see being eternally alive/existing as having eternal life. Admittedly, men say that eternal life will be of torture and torment, but it is still eternal life.

He will tell you that the soul is immortal despite the fact that Scripture explicitly states that God alone dwells in immortality.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation 14:9,10 Just say they will be tormented in the presents of angels. 11 says the smoke of their torment, like a memorial, a pictograph preserved by God as a memorial. The same thing is addressed in Mark

Mark 9:43,44 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Having a maggot last forever, come on get real, this is a memorial, taped, filmed archived digitally or maybe just remembered by God.
You call this arising out of a cult, your just a child of the RCC cult, along with Calvin, Luther etc...

Hi Deade,

You're just misapplying scripture here. The mention of their torment is not "like a memorial or a pictograph, but is referring to the literal torment of those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. You're attempting to apply a parabolic meaning to something that is meant to be literal. That would be the same idea of those who attempt to apply the meaning of Palms 50:10 to Rev.20:1-7 regarding the thousand years.

 

[shrume]

As I have stated many times before, the error is that death is not a state of life, but is a state of conscious existence. Both life and death are states of conscious existence which are determined by an individuals status with God. Those who die without being reconciled to God will exist in the state of death, which again is not non-existence or extinction, but the state of eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. The state of death has nothing to do with being non-existence. Life is also a state of existence. What makes it life opposed to death, is that the individual will exist in the presence of God, having well being, joy in the kingdom of God. Death is conscious existence in complete loss of well being in separation from God in the lake of fire.

You need to get the human idea of death as being non-existence out of your head and start understanding it from a Biblical definition.

Utter insanity...

You are basing your theology on a parable.

Here is the biblical definition of death:

Ecc 9:
5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thingthat is done under the sun.
10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ps 6:
5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

There are many, many more.

 

[Magenta]

Utter insanity...

You are basing your theology on a parable.

Here is the biblical definition of death:

Ecc 9:
5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thingthat is done under the sun.
10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ps 6:
5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

There are many, many more.

They fabricate some rule that says a parable cannot have real people named in them

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

He will tell you that the soul is immortal despite the fact that Scripture explicitly states that God alone dwells in immortality.

I think we all have accepted some things without examining them.
Given how much Jesus warned about the teaching/leaven of men, we'd be fools to think we haven't unknowingly swallowed some.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hello again Stunnedbygrace,

As I have stated many times before, the error is that death is not a state of life, but is a state of conscious existence. Both life and death are states of conscious existence which are determined by an individuals status with God. Those who die without being reconciled to God will exist in the state of death, which again is not non-existence or extinction, but the state of eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. The state of death has nothing to do with being non-existence. Life is also a state of existence. What makes it life opposed to death, is that the individual will exist in the presence of God, having well being, joy in the kingdom of God. Death is conscious existence in complete loss of well being in separation from God in the lake of fire.

You need to get the human idea of death as being non-existence out of your head and start understanding it from a Biblical definition.

I think you need to learn that you don't know everything and that there is still more to learn - even for you.

 

[Deade]

Hi Deade,

You're just misapplying scripture here. The mention of their torment is not "like a memorial or a pictograph, but is referring to the literal torment of those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. You're attempting to apply a parabolic meaning to something that is meant to be literal. That would be the same idea of those who attempt to apply the meaning of Palms 50:10 to Rev.20:1-7 regarding the thousand years.

That is such a loving god [sic] you serve, if you can't quite figure out how to serve him or if you just can't cut it in the program, he is going to torture you forever in flames.

Oh wait! That is everlasting life in flames, not death. What is so hard to understand about death? Nevermind, Ahwatukee will just tell you that you understand nothing about scripture. Se la vie!

 

[BenFTW]

Oh, I see, you believe I have not thought about what I believe as if it were not Scriptural (despite the fact that I have given many Scriptures) and as if there is no depth to my thought process? Wow. No, your idea of God torturing forever after those who refuse His offer of a life more abundant is repugnant in the face of the knowledge of how just and merciful God is, when He has specifically stated in His word that the thought of burning people alive never came into His mind, and to say it does not only dishonors God, but profanes His holy name.

What I see people doing is ignoring the obvious and going after some apocalyptic verse in a highly symbolic book and trying to use a parable to throw over the plain teaching of a multitude of Scriptures, that life is found in Jesus alone, and those not found in Him at the end of this age pass into the second death.

I'm sorry if I offended you, I was just trying to offer a different perspective. I didn't mean to suggest you haven't given it thought, but was offering another way for you to consider things. How do you reconcile God's justice, and obliterating everyone equally, with considering they are being judged according to their works?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I can appreciate that. So, please provide an example of scriptures as you say that are "in tension", which I believe you mean are in contradiction or contention with each other. Please provide any scriptures like that. If you have something like this, there are other scriptures that will clear up any contentions. This is done through comparing and cross-referencing all related scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion.

First, no, I do NOT mean they are in contradiction with each other. It APPEARS to us as if they are until we understand them.
Take one of magentas earlier posts where she lists a bunch of scriptures. They are some of the ones I'm talking about.
BUT, you are so convinced you know everything about the second death and are so certain that death means living that I don't believe you will be able to see the tension...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'm sorry if I offended you, I was just trying to offer a different perspective. I didn't mean to suggest you haven't given it thought, but was offering another way for you to consider things. How do you reconcile God's justice, and obliterating everyone equally, with considering they are being judged according to their works?

I'm not certain on your chosen words "obliterating everyone equally."
Jesus spoke of how it would be more tolerable for Sodom on the day of judgement than it would be for certain other sinners.

It's always intrigued me.

 

[shrume]

I'm sorry if I offended you, I was just trying to offer a different perspective. I didn't mean to suggest you haven't given it thought, but was offering another way for you to consider things. How do you reconcile God's justice, and obliterating everyone equally, with considering they are being judged according to their works?

People (and demons) cast into the lake of fire will suffer for varying lengths of time before they are destroyed. While he may be punished for thousands of years, eventually even the devil himself will be destroyed.

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Wonderful and thought provoking conversation with you guys today, as always.
Stayed up till 2:30 yesterday so need more sleep tonight.
Don't talk about anything good while I'm gone.

 

[shrume]

Wonderful and thought provoking conversation with you guys today, as always.
Stayed up till 2:30 yesterday so need more sleep tonight.
Don't talk about anything good while I'm gone.

I LOLed...

I'm hitting the sack early myself.

 

[Deade]

I'm sorry if I offended you, I was just trying to offer a different perspective. I didn't mean to suggest you haven't given it thought, but was offering another way for you to consider things. How do you reconcile God's justice, and obliterating everyone equally, with considering they are being judged according to their works?

Have you ever thought that God is not even dealing with most people, spiritually speaking, right now? God is pretty much letting the dead, everyone not called, go anyway they want. Satan is having fun with this world guiding it headlong towards destruction. God had put man as having dominion over the world. Satan transmits his evil throughout the world, mostly by deceiving man into thinking that he does not exist. Unless they start seeking Christ, then he pretends he is Christ.

2 Cor. 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

God is going to intervene right before mankind destroys all life on earth. Then set up the millennial reign. Then he will resurrect the rest of the dead, and carry off the judgment. (an whole nother study)