Is it true as is or is it not?

[know1]

Okay that was the first time I had a thread that I posted censored and removed without explanation. I was going to point out, what I see as a flaw in many people's interpretation of scripture, but since they did not allow me the opportunity, I'll try to do that in this post.

There are many statements or proclamations Jesus made that He himself said were true, but I have noticed that many have to add to what Jesus said to make it what they believe to be the truth rather than leaving it as is.

For example in Mark 11: 23 and 24 Jesus said "for verily I say unto you that whosoever shall say unto this mountain be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea and shall not doubt in his heart but she'll believe that those things which he said shall come to pass he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Therefore I say unto you what things soever you desire When you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them."

And again in John 14 verses 12 through 14 he States "verily verily I say unto you he that believeth on me the works that I do shall he do also and Greater Works than these shall he do because I go onto my father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name that will I do that the father may be glorified in the son.
If you shall ask anything in my name I will do it."

With many here on CC, they add 1st John 5 verses 14 and 15 which states "and this is the confidence that we have in him that if we ask anything according to his will he heareth us:
And if we know that he hear us whatsoever we ask we know that we have the petitions that we desire of him."

And so they will add this scripture to the promises of Jesus to make it what they believed to be the truth.

What I would like to know is why add to scripture that Jesus said was the truth, as is?

Basically what they are saying when they have to add to scripture that Jesus already said was true, is that he spoke a half-truth, and in order to make it the whole truth or the whole counsel of God, they inject the will of God into those promises to somehow keep it in the context in which it was made, but that is only for the promises regarding the Believers getting what they want, such as healing for either themselves or a loved one.

For some reason they do not apply it to scripture dealing with salvation.

So the example below is basically what they are saying Jesus is doing.

I tell you this is a true statement and it actually happened.

A few years ago I fasted for nine straight months eating nothing but drinking water only.

I know most of you would say right off the bat that the statement I made is preposterous and impossible in the natural. Which, in and of itself, is impossible.

Like I said the above statement is true I did Fast for 9 months eating no food but drinking water only,...
That is, I did so before 6 in the evening, every day for 9 months.

And even that is not the whole truth because I started out fasting until 11 in the morning and I worked my way up to 6 in the evening. Each month bumping it back 1 hour.

Is there anyone here reading this that would say my first statement was true?

It was the truth, but it was a lie at the same time, because it was only half the truth, and deceptive at the same time.

That is how I see those who add the will of God to scripture like those written above.

How do you see it, in light of my example?

 

[mcubed]

And again in John 14 verses 12 through 14 he States "verily verily I say unto you he that believeth on me the works that I do shall he do also and Greater Works than these shall he do because I go onto my father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name that will I do that the father may be glorified in the son.
If you shall ask anything in my name I will do it."

With many here on CC, they add 1st John 5 verses 14 and 15 which states "and this is the confidence that we have in him that if we ask anything according to his will he heareth us:
And if we know that he hear us whatsoever we ask we know that we have the petitions that we desire of him."

And so they will add this scripture to the promises of Jesus to make it what they believed to be the truth.

A different perspective.... Maybe they simply believe all Scripture is truth and not they to add on to Messiah. Maybe they should say and 1st John says, but not all people have the same style of writing. Scripture does build upon itself and defines itself. Don't get me wrong all Scripture needs to be taken in context. If I said, Judas hung himself and the Bible says go and do likewise (Luke 10:37 where Y-shua was saying show mercy), then there is a REALLY BIG PROBLEM.... That is how cults are started!!! and people not reading the Scripture for themselves. Yet in context, Scripture WILL DEFINE SCRIPTURE!!!

 

[Deade]

Do you really believe we could move a mountain? Even if we could, what would be the motive? Remember, mountain is a prophetic government. I can see where we would need to change a government's opinion. Book of Esther, anyone?

 

[Deade]

Dennis Rayburn - This is a font hack.

 

[mcubed]

Do you really believe we could move a mountain? Even if we could, what would be the motive? Remember, mountain is a prophetic government. I can see where we would need to change a government's opinion. Book of Esther, anyone?

Yes, I am that stupid that I do believe since G-d created that mountain HE COULD LITERALLY MOVE IT!!!! My Big DADDY (G-d)!?! ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE AND JUST YOU WAIT ONE DAY MT. OLIVES WILL SPLIT IN HALF!!! TELL ME THAT IS NOT MOVING A MOUNTAIN!!!! But He MOVES THE METAPHORICAL ONE TOO!!!!

 

[Adstar]

Okay that was the first time I had a thread that I posted censored and removed without explanation. I was going to point out, what I see as a flaw in many people's interpretation of scripture, but since they did not allow me the opportunity, I'll try to do that in this post.

There are many statements or proclamations Jesus made that He himself said were true, but I have noticed that many have to add to what Jesus said to make it what they believe to be the truth rather than leaving it as is.

For example in Mark 11: 23 and 24 Jesus said "for verily I say unto you that whosoever shall say unto this mountain be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea and shall not doubt in his heart but she'll believe that those things which he said shall come to pass he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Therefore I say unto you what things soever you desire When you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them."

And again in John 14 verses 12 through 14 he States "verily verily I say unto you he that believeth on me the works that I do shall he do also and Greater Works than these shall he do because I go onto my father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name that will I do that the father may be glorified in the son.
If you shall ask anything in my name I will do it."

With many here on CC, they add 1st John 5 verses 14 and 15 which states "and this is the confidence that we have in him that if we ask anything according to his will he heareth us:
And if we know that he hear us whatsoever we ask we know that we have the petitions that we desire of him."

And so they will add this scripture to the promises of Jesus to make it what they believed to be the truth.

What I would like to know is why add to scripture that Jesus said was the truth, as is?

Basically what they are saying when they have to add to scripture that Jesus already said was true, is that he spoke a half-truth, and in order to make it the whole truth or the whole counsel of God, they inject the will of God into those promises to somehow keep it in the context in which it was made, but that is only for the promises regarding the Believers getting what they want, such as healing for either themselves or a loved one.

For some reason they do not apply it to scripture dealing with salvation.

So the example below is basically what they are saying Jesus is doing.

I tell you this is a true statement and it actually happened.

A few years ago I fasted for nine straight months eating nothing but drinking water only.

I know most of you would say right off the bat that the statement I made is preposterous and impossible in the natural. Which, in and of itself, is impossible.

Like I said the above statement is true I did Fast for 9 months eating no food but drinking water only,...
That is, I did so before 6 in the evening, every day for 9 months.

And even that is not the whole truth because I started out fasting until 11 in the morning and I worked my way up to 6 in the evening. Each month bumping it back 1 hour.

Is there anyone here reading this that would say my first statement was true?

It was the truth, but it was a lie at the same time, because it was only half the truth, and deceptive at the same time.

That is how I see those who add the will of God to scripture like those written above.

How do you see it, in light of my example?

Bringing forward the scripture 1st John 5 verses 14 and 15 which states "and this is the confidence that we have in him that if we ask anything according to his will he heareth us.. Is NOT adding to the word of God.. because that scripture is the Word of God.. The Holy Bible is the Word of God.. All of it... It is a message in it's totality.. Not a message based on one or two isolated verses.. The Prophet Isaiah spoke of this concept when he declared::

Isaiah 28: KJV
9 "¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. {10} For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

The Bible is full of verses that cannot be fully understood without knowing other verses that deal with the same issue.. That's how people obtain the fullest picture of the Will of God.. By taking on board all scripture.. Not creating doctrines based on one verse or passage..

 

[Adstar]

Do you really believe we could move a mountain? Even if we could, what would be the motive? Remember, mountain is a prophetic government. I can see where we would need to change a government's opinion. Book of Esther, anyone?

Deade.. The power of the Holy Spirit will cause a mountain to be removed and cast into the sea... We could never move a mountain by our will.. But if our willis aligned with the will of God that mountain will be cast into the sea..

 

[maxwel]

Why don't we just leave the words of Jesus alone,
instead of using more scripture to interpret them?




1. Ambiguity:
Sometimes Jesus' words are NOT CLEAR, and they could be understood to mean different things, so without more study, we simply cannot be positive we understand them correctly.

Sometimes His words, by themselves, all alone, can simply be interpreted different ways.
So sometimes, without more study of the context, (from the adjacent scripture, or other scripture on the same topic) we simply CANNOT determine what his words actually meant.


2. Historical Context:
Jesus did not speak into a vacuum; he spoke at a certain time and place, and to certain people, and all of this created a certain "historical context." This normal, natural, "historical context" would naturally, and logically, give ADDITIONAL MEANING and CLARITY to his words. Without study, we will not understand this historical context, and it's very possible to misunderstand his words.

We need the historical context, in addition to the words, in order to properly understand the words.
Usually the historical context is found within the overall passage, but sometimes it's found in a different book of the bible, and sometimes it's not even clear until we do a deeper study of Jewish history and culture.


** Example #1 - Biblical example of historical context:
We know that when Jesus called himself "I am", he was claiming to be God.
How?
The Jews (the people Jesus was speaking to) understood that "I am" was a name of God from the Old Testament.
Jesus, being a Jew, would have certainly known that all the Jews recognized that as a name of God.
When Jesus called himself "I am", the Jews immediately tried to kill him for claiming to be God.
How does this show historical context?
A. If we know the historical context (that all Jews considered "I AM" to be a name of God) then we clearly see Jesus was INTENTIONALLY DECLARING HIMSELF TO BE GOD.
B. But if we don't know the historical context, we will NEVER understand the REAL MEANING OF THE WORDS, that Jesus is here intentionally declaring himself to be God.

** Example #2 - Modern example of historical context:
Let's imagine you got a wrongly addressed postal letter by mistake, and you were tired, and you opened it by mistake.
The letter says, "Please pray for me. I killed a man today."
You're so shocked that you immediately take this to the police station to report a murder!
But the police do a little investigation, and find this man is a solder, overseas, and he was just doing his duty at war... but he was deeply troubled by it.
How does this show historical context?
A. If you know the historical context (the man was a solder, and just upset by doing his duty) you would understand there was no crime committed at all.
B. If you do NOT understand the historical context, you would NEVER understand the REAL MEANING OF THE WORDS, and you would believe you received a letter from a murderer.


So what IS historical context?
It's anything that occurred or existed historically to give meaning to the words.
It could be a physical thing like a war, or a solder, or a cheating husband... or in the case of the Jews being angry at Jesus, it could be something as abstract as a mere "thought."
Sometimes historical context can be something as subtle as the "thoughts" and "cultural understanding" of the people in the story.



3. Adjacent/Passage Context:
In the New Testament we have the words of Jesus preserved INSIDE larger passages of scripture which give his words context. This larger passage, the text BEFORE and AFTER his words, gives us a great deal of context in understanding the TRUE MEANING of his words.

If we do not study the entire passage in which his words appear, it is very possible we will misunderstand his words in all kinds of different ways: grammatically, semantically, thematically, symbolically, or even historically.

If we don't study the entire passage, it's very likely we will misunderstand his words.

Let's not forget we all know common examples of this:
Ecclesiastes 8:15 says "a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry."
But if we take that phrase in context of the entire passage, we will see the passage is actually teaching the EXACT OPPOSITE!



4. Theological/Biblical Context:
God cannot lie or contradict himself, so if Jesus says something strange, or hard to understand, we can look for other passages in the Bible on the same topic, and then compare them, and harmonize them, to get at the full meaning.

It is safe to compare and harmonize different passages from scripture because God can never contradict himself.
So if ANY verse seems odd, or seems contradictory, we can simply study different verses on that topic until all the verses begins to harmonize, and the topic becomes clear.

We can always compare scripture with scripture safely, because God cannot contradict himself.
However, it IS possible for us to simply read a verse, and misunderstand it.
So it works as a "safety net" for us when we use the WHOLE BIBLE, and compare scripture with scripture.

Comparing other scripture to Jesus' words DOES NOT CHANGE HIS WORDS -
comparing other scripture to his words PROTECTS US FROM MISUNDERSTANDING HIS WORDS.






Conclusion:

1. Sometimes words in the Bible are NOT clear, and could mean different things, and they require context to understand them.

2. Sometimes words in the Bible are STRANGE, and DIFFICULT, and they require context to harmonize them with other doctrines.

3. There are many avenues which GOD HAS PROVIDED, to give us appropriate context, and understanding.

4. God provided context, in different forms, as a SAFETY NET to protect us from misunderstandings.

5. If we NEED context, and God PROVIDED context, and we choose to IGNORE context... we are really choosing to be willfully ignorant, and we are choosing to ignore God's provision.


----------

 

[know1]

Do you really believe we could move a mountain? Even if we could, what would be the motive? Remember, mountain is a prophetic government. I can see where we would need to change a government's opinion. Book of Esther, anyone?

You mean you don't?
The mountain that Jesus was speaking about was a literal mountain when he said, this mountain, to the people, even as the tree that he cursed to death was a literal tree.

The question is, are the scriptures true as is or do they have to have the will of God added to every single one that defies logic?

Apparently you do not believe what is written, but have called into question the validity and truthfulness of Jesus's Proclamation.

I have stated in the past that my wife did The Impossible by driving her car without any gas in the tank, twice. And no, it was not a hybrid car or an electric car it was an internal combustion engine type only that requires fuel to run.

When Jesus said that nothing shall be impossible to them that believe, he meant what he said.

Why don't we add the same scripture to the Salvation promises as that which is added to the promises that I mentioned in the original post?

Such as, in John 3: 15 it is written "that who so ever believes in Jesus should not perish but have eternal life". That is until, you factor in the will of God,

So you will have eternal life When You Believe,... IF it's God's will for you.

Again it is written, for by grace you are saved through faith, IF it is the will of God for you.

The Mormons have the same bad habit. They have added a word to first John 1: 1.

They know that there is no Greek word for the letter A and so have added that 2 verse 1 so that it reads "in the beginning was the word and the Word was with God and the Word was "a" god.

So I have done with them as I have done here and that is I've applied there logic to the scripture in this way.
"In the beginning was the word and the Word was with a god and the Word was a god.
The same was in the beginning with a god."

It should be more than obvious that adding the will of God to every scripture is a perversion of the scripture and it is not in the context of the scriptures that it's being applied to.

If it is a perversion to the Salvation scriptures then it is equally a perversion to scriptures that declare that God will give you whatsoever YOU desire or want.

Again, the whole reason why the will of God is added to scripture is to explain away people's failure to receive from God the things they asked for, like healing for themselves or a loved one.

 

[oldethennew]

i'll move the 'mountain' if The Holy Spirit tells me to,
but until then, I'm leaving it alone...

 

[notuptome]

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

What purpose would we have for moving a mountain?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KDM1]

i'll move the 'mountain' if The Holy Spirit tells me to,
but until then, I'm leaving it alone...

Please forgive my comment but it stood out to me and is one of my grumblings against myself and the Body Of Christ.. We lack so much Obedience and Faith we cannot even produce a typical everyday miracle as We were Commanded to go forth into the earth and perform , not for self glory ata all but to prove Gods Glory and Will in the earth that the deaf hear, the lame walk, the dead rise, the sick are healed.. I have yet to see even one.. yes, many "claim" miracles and there are many fake miracles all over the internet but the world isn't talking about The Body Of Christ in a favorable was because We tend to judge often, be humble too few times etc. I know why.. God told Us it just bothers me..
Romans 3:10-12 English Standard Version (ESV)
10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

When will We The Body truly Fast and Pray as needed?

 

[know1]

Bringing forward the scripture 1st John 5 verses 14 and 15 which states "and this is the confidence that we have in him that if we ask anything according to his will he heareth us.. Is NOT adding to the word of God.. because that scripture is the Word of God.. The Holy Bible is the Word of God.. All of it... It is a message in it's totality.. Not a message based on one or two isolated verse.. The Prophet Isaiah spoke of7 this concept when he declared::

Isaiah 28: KJV
9 "¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. {10} For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

The Bible is full of verses that cannot be fully understood without knowing other verses that deal with the same issue.. That's how people obtain the fullest picture of the Will of God.. By taking on board all scripture.. Not creating doctrines based on one verse or passage..

Your whole argument is nonsensical and full of holes.

To say that you are not adding to the word of God because what you are adding two a verse is part of the word of God is silly and itself.

You're not clarifying the verses in question but changing them and pulling them out of context.

Why is it so hard to accept the truth as it is written?

The will of God is already written in the verses of question, all you have to do is accepted as truth the way it is written.

 

[tourist]

Okay that was the first time I had a thread that I posted censored and removed without explanation. I was going to point out, what I see as a flaw in many people's interpretation of scripture, but since they did not allow me the opportunity, I'll try to do that in this post.

There are many statements or proclamations Jesus made that He himself said were true, but I have noticed that many have to add to what Jesus said to make it what they believe to be the truth rather than leaving it as is.

For example in Mark 11: 23 and 24 Jesus said "for verily I say unto you that whosoever shall say unto this mountain be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea and shall not doubt in his heart but she'll believe that those things which he said shall come to pass he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Therefore I say unto you what things soever you desire When you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them."

And again in John 14 verses 12 through 14 he States "verily verily I say unto you he that believeth on me the works that I do shall he do also and Greater Works than these shall he do because I go onto my father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name that will I do that the father may be glorified in the son.
If you shall ask anything in my name I will do it."

With many here on CC, they add 1st John 5 verses 14 and 15 which states "and this is the confidence that we have in him that if we ask anything according to his will he heareth us:
And if we know that he hear us whatsoever we ask we know that we have the petitions that we desire of him."

And so they will add this scripture to the promises of Jesus to make it what they believed to be the truth.

What I would like to know is why add to scripture that Jesus said was the truth, as is?

Basically what they are saying when they have to add to scripture that Jesus already said was true, is that he spoke a half-truth, and in order to make it the whole truth or the whole counsel of God, they inject the will of God into those promises to somehow keep it in the context in which it was made, but that is only for the promises regarding the Believers getting what they want, such as healing for either themselves or a loved one.

For some reason they do not apply it to scripture dealing with salvation.

So the example below is basically what they are saying Jesus is doing.

I tell you this is a true statement and it actually happened.

A few years ago I fasted for nine straight months eating nothing but drinking water only.

I know most of you would say right off the bat that the statement I made is preposterous and impossible in the natural. Which, in and of itself, is impossible.

Like I said the above statement is true I did Fast for 9 months eating no food but drinking water only,...
That is, I did so before 6 in the evening, every day for 9 months.

And even that is not the whole truth because I started out fasting until 11 in the morning and I worked my way up to 6 in the evening. Each month bumping it back 1 hour.

Is there anyone here reading this that would say my first statement was true?

It was the truth, but it was a lie at the same time, because it was only half the truth, and deceptive at the same time.

That is how I see those who add the will of God to scripture like those written above.

How do you see it, in light of my example?

So, in other words your fast consisting of eating vast quantities of food but still you were able to put a favorable spin on your 'fast". I don't consider your OP to be a lie but it certainly was an outstanding example of creative writing.

 

[KDM1]

Your whole argument is nonsensical and full of holes.

To say that you are not adding to the word of God because what you are adding two a verse is part of the word of God is silly and itself.

You're not clarifying the verses in question but changing them and pulling them out of context.

Why is it so hard to accept the truth as it is written?

The will of God is already written in the verses of question, all you have to do is accepted as truth the way it is written.

"Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person"

We should speak to others with respect and Grace, if we cannot to each other as Believers, how will we to the World?

 

[Nehemiah6]

What I would like to know is why add to scripture that Jesus said was the truth, as is?

Since ALL Scripture is given by the inspiration of God, it is necessary to bring all Scripture to bear on any subject. That is not "adding to" anything but ensuring that we have cross-referenced the relevant Scriptures and determined the truth.

For example there are a couple of Scriptures which appear to teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation. But when we examine all the relevant Scriptures we see that water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, but is so closely tied to conversion that it is almost inseparable. Those who believed were baptized immediately.

 

[know1]

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

What purpose would we have for moving a mountain?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That's not the point the point is that Jesus gave us the ability and the power through his word.

But rather than a literal Mountain why not apply that to a sickness or wasting disease of either yourself, a family member, or a loved one?

What purpose would there be in trying to move that metaphorical Mountain?

How would you squander that on your lust?

Since it has absolutely nothing to do with you, I am sure you would bring it back to the will of God again.

Scripture says all the promises of God are yay and amen in Christ Jesus, ... So long as it is the will of God.

But that's not what the scripture says by adding the will of God to it and that is not what the scripture means either.

As I stated before, DD's Editions especially the will of God and you just brought up concerning squandering things on your lusts so, are not explaining or expounding on scripture changing and twisting them to make them say what you want instead of what God meant.

 

[know1]

i'll move the 'mountain' if The Holy Spirit tells me to,
but until then, I'm leaving it alone...

That's not going to tell you to do something that you have absolutely no faith for in the first place.

That's why you don't hear him tell you to go lay hands on the sick and they shall recover or to raise the Dead or move a mountain.

 

[know1]

Since ALL Scripture is given by the inspiration of God, it is necessary to bring all Scripture to bear on any subject. That is not "adding to" anything but ensuring that we have cross-referenced the relevant Scriptures and determined the truth.

For example there are a couple of Scriptures which appear to teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation. But when we examine all the relevant Scriptures we see that water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, but is so closely tied to conversion that it is almost inseparable. Those who believed were baptized immediately.

I fully understand that because that is what I do when I study a subject. But that is when it relates to a subject.

What you are doing does not add to the explanation but changes what is being said and what is being promised.

Let's take John 15 verse 7 for example. Jesus said if we abide in him and his word abides in us we shall ask what we will and I stress the words, what we will, shall be given to or done for us.

Do you still need to ask what the will of God is for that scripture or add to it?

You shouldn't have to because the will of God is written right there and that is whatever it you want or whatever your will is, that's what the will of God is for that scripture or promise.

Scriptures are ever so simple an easy to understand but the problem is that you and many others refuse to believe that God would give you or do for you whatever you ask for or whatever you say.

Most however don't even know that it applies both to the positive or negative, to either cursing or blessing.

The will of God does not need to be added to the scriptures, first because it's not part of the subject, and secondly, because it not only changes the scripture but negates the promises and what you apply it to.

It makes the promises of God full of uncertain. Making it so that you cannot rest or stand on the word or that promise because you just don't know what God is going to do.

It reduces the promises of God to Shaky Ground at best.

If you were to apply that same logic or scripture to the promises of God concerning salvation, you would have no faith in the word of God or in God for that matter, because you won't know what God will do.

You don't know if it's God's will just save someone. You don't even know if God called that person. You simply are assuming that God wants the person you're speaking to to be born again.

So why are you adding to the scriptures in question only, and not to the scriptures concerning salvation or the Forgiveness of God, when it does not even clarify but change what is written?

 

[know1]

That's not going to tell you to do something that you have absolutely no faith for in the first place.

That's why you don't hear him tell you to go lay hands on the sick and they shall recover or to raise the Dead or move a mountain.

That should have said that God is not going to tell you to do something that you have absolutely no faith to do.