Baptism and holy spirit

[shrume]

Well, maybe you just aren't called to take care of the nursery...

So now tongues is relegated to babies in Christ, those unsure in their faith, those who need extra evidence? Mature Christians don't need to be concerned with it?

Is this your new position?

 

[CS1]

Here is the post I had so many thoughts on. It will require explaining a...phase I went through.

When I received the Spirit, I experienced the whole goosebumps and waves washing over and through me thing I talked about earlier. Some brothers I talked to didn't know what I was talking about (some did) and had never experienced it. I went through a phase where I was totally convinced that they had not received the Holy Spirit because of this. I remember telling one of them, but if you've never heard the Spirit speak in you, you can't say that you know His voice!

I moved from that error (which is quite a bit of arrogance) into even more error. I became convinced that when the Spirit "spoke" in this way where I had a physical reaction, that He was approving of what I was hearing, agreeing in me at what someone was saying, or telling me: go this way.

Then the strangest thing happened. Every single time I heard a phrase like: Obama isn't going anywhere or, we now have a dictator, just watch, he's not stepping down, or any similar phrase relating to Obama not leaving or allowing a new change of the guard, I would instantly be covered in those goosebumps and those waves washing over me.

And keep in mind, I had NEVER felt this feeling/sensation over my entire life until the day I received the Holy Spirit. So I knew it had to do with God, that was never in question. But I went from thinking it was just the rivers of living water bubbling up inside me, to then thinking any who didn't feel it were unsaved, to then thinking He was telling me about something that would take place in the future.

And so convinced was I that I even posted in here what I believed the Spirit was saying to me and confirming to me over and over and over. And then the day came, years later, when Trump stepped into the office and Obama stepped out. And I had been completely mistaken.

(Actually, I began to suspect that I might be misunderstanding prior to that day of the change of the guard, because of something I read from an old saint I had come to pick up any time I had great sorrows, but it was still, even then, although this dead saint had never steered me wrong, still in the back of my mind that I could have it right.)

I had to completely reevaluate all that I had become so very, very certain of. A small and arrogant error had led to another and another and snowballed, and it had all taken me very far off base.

I came to understand that what I had so arrogantly thought (and claimed at times) was given to me for certain reasons was not for any of the reasons I'd thought - because I'm seeking after God harder than them, because I'm spending hours a day studying and they aren't, because I'm more humble, etc. I came to learn that instead, He had given me this tactile sense of His Presence because I had a weaker faith and was more prone to a discouragement that may have made me turn back to Egypt. And I had thought it was because I was humble, while I was arrogantly pronouncing others to be without the Holy Spirit!!

This whole thing occurred over YEARS. It took YEARS for Him to work even a trace of humility into me!

I try not to talk about personal experience , no that I do not believe your story. I just know it is not going to be accepted without verifying. That being said I knew I was saved and I experienced what was described in Acts 2 just no rushing wind or cloves of fire. Just asked Jesus to baptize me with the Holy Spirit to be a witness . I then begin to speak out in a language as the Holy Spirit gave me the ability. Now the enemy tried to make me think a whole bunch of stuff and I wanted to stop because I did not want to be making this up.



But I continued and told the devil shut up and he’s a liar. When I got to church that night for a youth meeting the gospel group was standing in a circle praying before they went to minster in music. I walked over to them, placed my hand on them not to disturb them and prayed. All of a sudden heard this language unrehearsed , fluent, and flowing out of this person. Sounding like a women Lol and it was me. My mind could think as I was speaking and it was saying wow what is that? Wow that is coming out of me , then this wonderful washing and powerful presence of God came over me . No one will ever tell me that was not God. And I see in scripture that my experience is not the exception , Jesus want everyone to experience the empowering of the YHoly Spirit just as the church in Acts did.



The Holy Spirit will not do anything to you, you are not ready for.

 

[shrume]

You are correct Paul did not say it. The Holy Spirit Who authored the scripture said it. 1 Cor 13:8 tongues will cease.

And they will.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

It does not say unknown tongues only tongues. Glossa in the Greek which can mean either the organ of speech or language. In this case it must mean language because I don't see scripture referring to the organ in our mouth.

We both agree that opinion is not context. Paul is teaching them about the gifts and removing the emphasis on tongues and placing it on prophesy.

But he is not dismissing tongues. In fact he states he would like all Christians to speak in tongues.

Corinth like todays church is all atwitter over tongues and has abandoned teaching sound doctrine which is done through prophesy.

Prophesy is not for teaching. It is for speaking words of edification, exhortation, and comfort.

I still am awaiting the scripture that enjoins us to pray in tongues.

See 1 Cor 14:5, 14, 15; Eph 6:18; Jude 20.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

So now tongues is relegated to babies in Christ, those unsure in their faith, those who need extra evidence? Mature Christians don't need to be concerned with it?

Is this your new position?

You have made me laugh really hard shrume!

No, all who speak in tongues are not babies or immature.
Those who walk with lesser amounts of humility are immature. Those who would insist that they know for a fact that someone has not received the Spirit, or who would say they know for a fact that those who have never manifested tongues have never prayed or communed in the spirit - those are the immature.

With more humility comes a bewilderment that sees it thought it knew all about God, while all the time it knew very little.

 

[shrume]

You have made me laugh really hard shrume!

Glad I'm useful for something..

No, all who speak in tongues are not babies or immature.
Those who walk with lesser amounts of humility are immature. Those who would insist that they know for a fact that someone has not received the Spirit, or who would say they know for a fact that those who have never manifested tongues have never prayed or communed in the spirit - those are the immature.

With more humility comes a bewilderment that sees it thought it knew all about God, while all the time it knew very little.

I generally agree, with the exception that I think biblically, praying in the spirit means speaking in tongues (scripture refs given above..). It's -people- that take the term and try to redefine it according to their experiences.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I try not to talk about personal experience , no that I do not believe your story. I just know it is not going to be accepted without verifying. That being said I knew I was saved and I experienced what was described in Acts 2 just no rushing wind or cloves of fire. Just asked Jesus to baptize me with the Holy Spirit to be a witness . I then begin to speak out in a language as the Holy Spirit gave me the ability. Now the enemy tried to make me think a whole bunch of stuff and I wanted to stop because I did not want to be making this up.



But I continued and told the devil shut up and he’s a liar. When I got to church that night for a youth meeting the gospel group was standing in a circle praying before they went to minster in music. I walked over to them, placed my hand on them not to disturb them and prayed. All of a sudden heard this language unrehearsed , fluent, and flowing out of this person. Sounding like a women Lol and it was me. My mind could think as I was speaking and it was saying wow what is that? Wow that is coming out of me , then this wonderful washing and powerful presence of God came over me . No one will ever tell me that was not God. And I see in scripture that my experience is not the exception , Jesus want everyone to experience the empowering of the YHoly Spirit just as the church in Acts did.



The Holy Spirit will not do anything to you, you are not ready for.

I think every one of us in here believes - even knows - that Jesus wants us all to experience the empowering of the Holy Spirit. That isn't really the debate in here, for the most part.

The debate is over whether that empowering will look exactly the same for all and whether each one of us will walk in every single gift/manifestation there is.

 

[notuptome]

And they will.

Rather they have.

Prophesy is not for teaching. It is for speaking words of edification, exhortation, and comfort.

Another thing you define incorrectly.

See 1 Cor 14:5, 14, 15; Eph 6:18; Jude 20.

None of these speak of praying in tongues.

Spirit led prayer is not done in tongues. Never has been.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

You are correct Paul did not say it. The Holy Spirit Who authored the scripture said it. 1 Cor 13:8 tongues will cease.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

It does not say unknown tongues only tongues. Glossa in the Greek which can mean either the organ of speech or language. In this case it must mean language because I don't see scripture referring to the organ in our mouth.

We both agree that opinion is not context. Paul is teaching them about the gifts and removing the emphasis on tongues and placing it on prophesy. Corinth like todays church is all atwitter over tongues and has abandoned teaching sound doctrine which is done through prophesy.

I still am awaiting the scripture that enjoins us to pray in tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

wrong and when I say Paul you know I mean the Holy Spirit led him to speak on this . 1cor 13:8 does not say they will cease . Good try but wrong.

your half baked caking method of Bible reading is not right . You should stop that .

1cor 13: 8 -10 provides ther full context :

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Note: has knowledge vanished? has prophecies failed? has tongues ceased? NOpe

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

this is the error with those who take ONE verse and try to build a theological doctrine to disprove the Gifts of the Holy Spirit today . One verse out of all three chapters. Now verse 10 says “But when that which is Perfect has come”



Question you think that which is “perfect has come” ? what is it ? what is the part that is done away with ?

 

[shrume]

Rather they have.

Not true.

Prophesy is not for teaching. It is for speaking words of edification, exhortation, and comfort.

Another thing you define incorrectly.

1 Cor 14:
3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

None of these speak of praying in tongues.

All of them pertain to speaking in tongues, AKA praying in tongues, AKA speaking by the spirit of God.

Spirit led prayer is not done in tongues. Never has been.

1 Cor 14:
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Spirit led prayer is not done in tongues. Never has been.

I completely disagree with this. Those who are given this great gift of speaking in tongues and who pray in tongues are being led by the Spirit. Yes, there are some who fake it because of pressure, but I don't think that's the case with CS1, with shrume, with oh I forget her name, sorry.

 

[CS1]

It never ceases to amaze me, how each side for the gifts of the Holy Spirit and those who say it has ceased only use one verse in the bible to demonstrate their point and not more scriptures to formulate a normative to their positional take on a biblical topic. UPC does that with Acts 2:38

Others do that with 1cor 13:8



And both have left out the full context of the sentence, chapter, Book, and Bible. No, wonder why so many are confused. A bunch of half-baked cakes.

 

[CS1]

notuptome
You did not answer my qestion concerning 1cor 13:8

 

[CS1]

notuptome

Question you think that which is “perfect has come” ? what is it ? what is the part that is done away with ?

please answer and support it with Bible or better yer just tell me what 1cor 13:8 is in context to the perfect that has come.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I think I recall him saying that which is perfect has come is...the NT canon. It struck me as so bizarre that I skipped the rest of his post, but I do remember that first part because I thought it was ridiculous. Sorry to say that but it was so far from seeming sensical that I just skipped the rest of it. (If I've confused posters, I apologize roger.)

 

[CS1]

I think I recall him saying that which is perfect has come is...the NT canon. It struck me as so bizarre that I skipped the rest of his post, but I do remember that first part because I thought it was ridiculous. Sorry to say that but it was so far from seeming sensical that I just skipped the rest of it. (If I've confused posters, I apologize roger.)

I will wait for his response

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I just thought of some encouragement for anyone who has never spoken in tongues if they have felt any discouragement at the charges in here that they have not received the Spirit because they've never manifested the gift of the Holy Spirit in this particular way.

It starts at 1 Cor12:15
15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

So if a tongue has convinced you that you are not a part of the body because you are not also a tongue, you would not for that reason stop being a part of the body! Because the parts of the body do not get to say who is a part of the body. It is by Gods' choosing, drawing, and saving that one is a member of the body.

So be of good cheer and do not be angry with them but love and forgive and bear with them until God makes this clear to them.

 

[shrume]

I just thought of some encouragement for anyone who has never spoken in tongues if they have felt any discouragement at the charges in here that they have not received the Spirit because they've never manifested the gift of the Holy Spirit in this particular way.

There is one person on this forum promoting that idea, and he is wrong. It is probably true that most Christians born of the Holy Spirit have never spoken in tongues. It does not mean that are not saved, or do not have the gift.

For the record....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well maybe you will have better luck than I did CS1. I tried to have that same discussion with him but didn't see any more relevant verses, just the one. It went like this:

1 Cor 13 does not address all the gifts. 1 Cor 13 addresses only three gifts. These three have ended.

I've heard this before so I know it is the belief of some that knowledge, prophecy and tongues have ceased. My problem is that it struck me as so odd and beyond my ability to comprehend at the time that I just skipped over any such posts so I don't know what corroborative verses other than 1 cor 13 are used as proofs.

Gimme 'em, roger, so I can follow your thinking on it.

Paul said they would end so they ended. The perfect of verse 10 is the completed word of God the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

There is one person on this forum promoting that idea, and he is wrong. It is probably true that most Christians born of the Holy Spirit have never spoken in tongues. It does not mean that are not saved, or do not have the gift.

For the record....

I heard you the other 5 times you stated this. And I agree. And yes, there is only one at present who I see stating it. Kelby began in the thread by leaning toward it but her view seemed to change a little, which is a good thing. If our discussions don't move us closer to each other in agreement, then we're wasting our time and we aren't learning more. But it we stay calm and keep walking in the Spirit, He begins to teach us and bring unity. Most of us would happily settle for even more unity rather than complete unity at this point.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I heard you the other 5 times you stated this. And I agree. And yes, there is only one at present who I see stating it. Kelby began in the thread by leaning toward it but her view seemed to change a little, which is a good thing. If our discussions don't move us closer to each other in agreement, then we're wasting our time and we aren't learning more. But it we stay calm and keep walking in the Spirit, He begins to teach us and bring unity. Most of us would happily settle for even more unity rather than complete unity at this point.

And if your mind isn't constantly being changed on many things, then your mind isn't being renewed and you are not growing in Christ or learning a darn thing but are just repeating yourself over and over because you already know everything.